clutch kit opinions
 

Maybe another loaded question but Im going to replace the centerforce clutch when I put in the new tkx trans. Been very happy with the centerforce but its been in there many years and would like to start new. Its just a single disc which Im fine with but does get spirted driving and a few dragstrip passes a year. Peddle pressure is good with the diaphram style. So if i use the original flywheel which is original to the car its for a 11" . Going from 10 spline to 26. Any preferences?

My last clutch disc was a Hayes and used a Centerforce pressure plate. Worked fine and was less “grabby” than the Centerforce disc.

If you want to go dual disc, I would go with the Ram Concept 10.5 over the McCleod dual disc since one of the discs had a Marcel carrier and a sprung hub, where the McCleod only has a Marcel carrier and no sprung hub on either disc. Do your homework before you make a choice.

I think Ill stay single disk. Maybe centerforce dual friction?? Also looking at a RAM flywheel 1557LW billet steel. The 1557 is 35LBs and the LW is 29 lbs. From what Ive read my stock flywheel is 30?

I've used a CF DF before and it worked well with a 450 Hp motor, not sure of the power limit for them though. Should work well for your 1970 GTO.

I am so not on board with the CF counterweight setups, I've seen many fail.

Lately I've been recommending SPEC clutches, and have one for my TKX setup. It appears the same clutches are made/rebranded by others, but regardless of branding, they are certainly great quality performance clutches.

https://specclutch.com/

I was hard core Mcleod for years, but they do have some oddities. Have to be careful when ordering, and their' pre-sales support is marginal. I've never had luck buying any of their' 'kits', always had to buy individual stuff and piece a kit together. For the longest time, their' diaphragm PPs were junk, but think they've improved on them a lot over the last 10 years.

Never had luck with RAM or ZOOM, back in the day, they were the cheapest stuff out there, and would fail frequently.




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Would you recommend the stage 2 with spec? Reading prior questions about people asking the which clutch question the opinions were all over the place. I should have known. I guess the question should of been which ones to
definitely stay away from

You know having those extra weights spinning around at 6000 on Centerforces always worried me!

I had good luck with Zoom and even Weber back in the 70s:) Still have a could that were on my 409 from then.

I used a modern driveline clutch for my TKX. They, MDL, manufactured thier own clutches, prices where pretty decent, might want to check them out.

For the past 25 plus years of having at least 3 stick shift Pontiacs and have had used only McLeod B&B pressure plates.They no longer do B&B but do rebuild them.Tom

Like AG said I use center force II behind 400-500hp applications and they've always served me well.

Ive been using them for about 25-30 years off and on and never had a single issue with them. Nice light pedal feel, even my wife drives one daily with no complaints.

Before that I used zoom, a lot of hays when I was running umtr and the last stint of that got into the center force. All of them treated me well.

I did have a mcloud in my son's mustang for a while. It worked fine but pedal effort was a little too stiff for my liking and trying to slip it more than one or 2 passes at the track induced some pretty heavy chatter so it didn't like that much at all. Daily driving was fine other than like I said pedal effort a little high. I didn't care for high pedal effort on a cable actuated clutch so I pulled it for a center force year before last and it's been great.

I used spec many many years ago when running 4th gen Camaros. That was back around 1999-2002, they were popular with that crowd back then. Worked ok.

For my street drivers that see the track 2-3 times a year, the center forces have been my choice for a long time now.

I haven't used MDL clutches, so really can't comment on them, but have seen a number of folks comment that the were working well for them.

I used the McLeod B&B pressure plates for years, and their' most aggressive disc which still has marcel. Aside from the heavy pedal, they were very streetable and held up to high power levels. Just have to make sure your linkage is up to snuff.

Some that do a lot of stop & go would comment they were 'too heavy' on pedal psi, but I never seemed to mind, and I would commute in Wash DC stop and go traffic for years.

I have used some of the Weber setups, they were not 'bad', but due to my power levels, I always had to step up to more aggressive setups.

What manufacturers list as 'power levels' or 'applications' for 'performance' apps usually don't measure up to what I experienced in actual use, and others found that to be true too. So because of that, I still use the same approach for all my apps with selecting the most aggressive setups where the disc still has marcel.

You can look at what the diff is here on levels of SPEC clutch offerings:

https://specclutch.com/products/#performance-clutches

The last 2 clutch setups I used/recommended were Stage 3+, but could probably get away with 2+ in most applications. The added cost of the 2+ over the base 2 is like $25, so the step up seems worth it.

When searching for a clutch where an application is required, I usually use a 1970 GTO with a 455 as the app.

The nice thing about SPEC on their' PPs is that they use a 'flat finger' design, so there's even pedal psi over the entire range from rest to disengagement. Most legacy design PPs with the raised fingers have the typical nose-over pedal feel, and that design is more susceptible to hanging at RPM.


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Years ago I used a Hayes B&B with an organic disc. It was hard to depress and hard on the linkage, stop and go was no fun, it's on my shelf now with only about 3000 miles.

Yes. The PPs I would get were the B&B 3200 version, and the pedal was noticeably heavy.


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My current set up is a 11" centerforce II thats been in there since 2003.I have seen on youtube where the weights would get off center on people and cause a vibration but I would assume thats gotta be rare or they wouldnt keep making them like that. They ended up cutting the weights off.I dont believe Ive ever had a problem like that. I had looked at MDLs clutch,,,they actually had the part # when they gave me a quote. KK4-504. Ive had the B&B before and didnt like it. MCleod has their 75221.

Clutches have come a long way. You don't need crazy stiff pedal pressures to get the clamping forces you need in higher HP applications.

No need to abuse the clutch linkage.

I've tried a bunch of clutches after breaking some clutch cables with some stiffer setups and simply got away from the heavy pedal feel stuff just for that reason. The easier pedal effort in traffic is just another bonus.

Friction material has come a long way for sure.

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I had to add a brace to my Impala's linkage with the stiff pedal from the B&B PP! Ben a stock one!

I used to go through parts store diaphragm clutches like crazy. Switched to a Hays Borg and Beck and it lasted much longer. But that was the 90's. These days my Ram diaphragm is holding up great, could be I just drive like a sissy due to old age, receding hairline, and an overall lack of manliness. Sad!

Could be worse I82, you might not have a car to drive like a sissy.

Thats what has happened to me since 80's with this car. Started off putting cheap parts store clutches in and went through them in no time. Eventually went with a B&B type hayes I believe and had to reenforce some brackets because there was so much peddle pressure. Then finally ended up with the centerforce which has been great compared to all those. Now its time for a new kit to go with the tkx. Even though I didnt have any problems with the weights and vibration Im leaning towards something else this time other than CF.. I just dont need those problems if they did happen to occur. Just want something that can take some play time and last ,,,and not have a stiff peddle.

My clutch pedal isn't the only thing that isn't as stiff as it used to be ...

Nice

LOL

Sildenafil 100 mg is your friend I82, it'll put lead in your pencil.

I use a 2400 B&B in my street cars,have a 2800 in my 63 Lemans which I raced in the early years.Keep it as it helps keep my new knee in shape.Tom

I have a McLeod setup. I have a factory mechanical system, no hydraulics. Pedal feel is good, not too stiff, pretty soft actually. No complaints about it.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/m...mber+Ad+Groups

Did I read earlier that you had a 221 and went to the 321? What were the characteristics of the 2 and why do you like the 321 better?

I never actually had the 221 in the car. It's hard to remember the details all of that but I think I had the 221 and sent it back for the 321 before it all came together in the car. So, I can't give any comparison between the two. But, my impression of the 321 is that it handles my engine well and with a stock linkage, the pedal feel is very good and I go out of my way to drive on steep, windy roads with a lot of shifting.

Ok thanks. Looking at the specs I might get the 221. Looks like their version of the “ dual friction “. If it’s at least as good as the centerforce ll I’ve been using with a equally good pedal feel I should be happy with it.
You ever try your car at the drag strip?

Never had it to the strip. I'd love to but it's a bit too far.

Common now :)

We drive ours to the track all the time over 4 hours of drive time and 250 miles.

Jeff at SS recommends the 321 by my driving habits

That McLeod 321 setup uses the legacy type arched fingers, which are the ones that tend to hang. Also, it has ceramic material, which is more aggressive wear on the flywheel. Just to comment.

If you slip the clutch a lot, you will notice the flywheel wear. If you don't do any higher RPM shifts, then a hang situation is generally not a concern.

SPEC uses a combo of different materials, carbon fiber, kevlar, etc, which is more 'advanced' that 'legacy' materials. And the PP is a more modern design as well. Being only like $35 more than the McLeod, it's a deal.

Summit carries them at a lower price as I recall.

If you wonder about the quality, homework it, I did. A lot of modern muscle people use them and swear by them.

Just saying. I don't get any money from the sale of them either.

I have never tried any of the newer McLeod diaphragm PPs, but know a few years ago they did update their' offerings & quality.



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I've never experienced any "clutch hanging" with those bent finger style pressure plates. That's all I've ever used and raced those for many years.

Usually when you have a clutch that hangs it's a sign of mal adjustment, pushing the pressure plate too far passed center and it won't spring back. Most I've worked on come in with not enough free play, people adjusting them too tight likely trying to shorten the throw or just not wanting to press the clutch that far, and they also show signs of wearing those fingers as a result, which also shortens the life of the throw out bearing as well because it's just riding the fingers all the time.

You're a much more fearsome road warrior than I!

:)

I haven't noticed hanging up so far. I don't do much slipping. As far as shift points, I aim for 5000 but it gets to 5500 at times.

What about the discs that are Kevlar? MDLs offer their Kevlar but don’t know how they are on the street and how they take abuse .

I got Kevlar once for a street car,never again.Tom

What happened Tom?

It chattered a lot when taking off from a light.Never tried to race it,might have been good.Tom

Just because someone doesn't experience the issue doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Here's a good read:

https://www.motortrend.com/features/...982-1234-55-1/

Excerpt:

"Diaphragm: This design has been around for the last 20 years, mainly on GM cars. Its chief advantages are low pedal pressures (so there's no linkage or firewall flex) and quick, even engagement/disengagement. Unlike the other two designs that utilize coil springs, a diaphragm clutch has a single spring with multiple fingers, called a Belleville spring. Since the Belleville spring can't go into coil bind, it tends to overcenter when engine rpm exceeds 6000. Once created, this condition persists during disengagement, due to centrifugal force, resulting in the pedal sticking to the floor, especially with stock-type OEM units with flat fingers parallel to the outer casting. Certain high-performance factory units and virtually all aftermarket pieces use a longer spring with the fingers arranged in a cone shape that protrudes outward and up in relation to the outer casting, which significantly delays the onset of the "overcenter'' condition. With these designs, a shorter-thanstock throwout bearing is usually required."

Some call the phenomenon 'Pedal sticks to the floor', I call it 'hanging'.

As for 'cone' fingers, another excerpt:

"With these types of fixes, the diaphragm makes a good heavy-duty street/strip clutch. However, it must be recognized that they are really only a "Band-Aid" approach. "

I will add that the more the fingers are raised, the less life the PP has. Many D-PPs have raised fingers, some are completely flat, and yet others can even be 'coned' inward.

As a D-PP becomes 'compromised', the RPM that it hangs at progressively gets lower. I recall having cheap clutch setups that would hang, and I would continue to drive them until I had the time/money to replace them. So I've personally experienced it. Many times.

I became a pro on bench-pressing munchies because of clutches, and have replaced them over back to back weekends several times.

Adjustment is critical on all clutches, but is has little to no effect on hanging.


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I never said I haven't experienced it but I have cured the issue with proper adjustment. As far as cheap clutches go ya get what ya pay for

Several have commented they haven't experienced it, I wasn't targeting anyone.

I know people with modern muscle that wind their' engines pretty high, 7k+ ranges, and have had issues. Those who switched to the SPEC stuff have been happy with them in those cases.

I've seen even mainstream 'performance' clutches suffer, it's not always the cheap ones that have issues.

I used to use some of the higher end Hayes stuff and have exploded discs. Pretty sure I posted pics of one of those. And that was on street tires, on the street.

One thing I've shared in the past also is the Speed Direct linkage upgrade kits, even a daily driver could benefit from:

https://www.speeddirect.com/shop?search=linkage&order=



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I never had a clutch hang on me, I just had pieces of the disc and springs floating around in my bellhousing and some really loud noises. Once every few months until I couldn't afford to drive like that anymore!!

Here's the pic, found it. Pretty sure it's a Hayes. Hung it on the wall for a conversation piece.



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I've had that happen several times with cheap parts store replacements with a 400 Hp motor.

The specs have a 11.75” disc and Kevlar? The 2 and the 2+. Also do people consider the McLeod to be a cheap clutch? The 221 or the 321.

"became a pro on bench-pressing munchies because of clutches" I was, then I tried that on my iron case 4 speed in my college 69 Roadrunner! Dang it was heavy!

I like the Zoom on my Buick 455/TKO-600. 3800lb car, 6,000rpm shifts, mid-12's. Good pedal feel and holding up.