number crunching a 72 TA...
 

My buddy just purchased a 72 sight unseen and what an adventure.

She doesn't have the original block sadly but we wondering what else she has and what the block may have come from.

It is really hard to read the # beside the water pump but at least it has the 455 stamp:

1KN (5 or 8) 13624

Has a 4 speed munci that is loud as hell - are they supposed to be? Seems to shift fine for the short drive from the transport truck:

C27151WJ

The intake is much more experimental looking than my 74's:

Winters 488945

qjet:

7040562 2273

She is pretty ruff around the edges, prolly paid too much but it is still exciting to see a unicorn like this around here.



Thanks!

Carb is off a 1970 400/455. The M-22 Rockcrusher Muncies had the helical cut gears and have a very distinctive whine, maybe your buddy got lucky and has one of those. The 488945 intake is correct for a 72 455 HO

Thanks lime, maybe it won't explode after all...buyer's remorse is always a biatch lol

If he's keeping tabs of things...
Partial VIN I can't decipher yet. But the xx(5)13624 may indicate a '72.
1972 Muncie M22 tag should read 6271517WJ.
Correct carb. will cost thousands of dollars.
Carb. on there now is a 1970 California full-size Pontiac 455 service replacement.

Thanks ransom... I would imagine a black market of parts for this rare bird

Is the nose cone the same as 70-73?

Sent from my Surface Duo using Tapatalk

1970-2 are the same, 1973 is different.

The M22 in my '72 T/A has a loud whine... my '70 Chevelle SS454's M-22 sounds the same. They sound cool.. buy gets kinda annoying after a few hours of driving.

I need one...

The 72 I used to have had a m22 and was loud. I thought something was wrong but shifted fine. Sounded like a blower whine. Ran like that for many miles.

As I got my car, it came with an M22 out of a 1972 Firebird;
music.

I’m happy to help decipher numbers ect. if you want.

I have seen a couple of the ‘72 HO carbs, but a dead ringer stand in should suffice it for most.

My opinion, since all 1972 Pontiac carbs used the same 750cfm dual booster ring fuel bowls, is that even if the correct 7042273 cannot be sourced, there are many stand in 1972 model year replacements that would be just fine - that is, assuming your friend wants to swap it out.

I think you have my number from a couple years back - correct?

Post some pictures!!!!

I've owned a couple of 1972 Trans Am 4-spds over the years. As others have said, the M22 is very noisy. I've also owned a couple of cars with Muncies where the countershaft bearings were going bad. They have a combination of whine and roar. An M22 in good shape will produce an annoying whine, but a M22 with a bad internal bearing is obnoxious. Post the last couple of digits of the VIN, the correct block may still be out there. BTW, a 1972 T/A could come either with a distributor (WD code, I think) or a WM (electronic distributor).

I have a WM out of a Firebird that is a little too close to the build date for my car. I've been looking a block with a cast date around January 1972 for it, the cast date on the block I have is B292 (leap day). I am undecided if I want to use a service block or a WM that is too close to the production date.

I ran M22 transmissions and still have two on the shelves as of today, nice piece of history/conversation that will find their way into future projects I have ( mostly nostalgia strip cars)

On the street it was fun for 1 hour farting around and terrorizing old ladies but got old quick and there was no way my one speaker AM radio could play louder than the transmission.

Was also not a good car for dates unless she was a total gearhead...which only exist in my dreams...

Peter

Ok, she gonna be loud...hopefully he can live with that until the buyer's remorse wears off!

Thanks Unjohnny...yes I do...

Ok, he is overwhelmed with what is obviously wrong before he tackles what should be right but this is good info...also trying to convince him to join the family as he will need the help as I do!

I am genuinely surprised to hear “annoying” ect associated with the transmission;
I love the sound.

I also always had at least two speakers with my radio.

Only got a couple snaps in transient and landedAttachment 642189Attachment 642190Attachment 642192Attachment 642193

Sent from my Surface Duo using Tapatalk

My 72 T/A 4-spd was an a/c car, and I used to take it on trips back home year round, which was three hours one way. It had the Flowmaster transverse muffler that hung in the stock location. Between the a/c fan mower running on high (I live in the south), the whine of the M22, and the drone of the Flowmaster muffler, it would give you a headache after driving for several hours.

Looks like a nice car. Pick at a few things and enjoy.

It's nice to be able to pound my chest and say I have a M-22 Rockcrusher. :D

I agree, all the negative talk about M22's, geez, that's music to my ears and forth gear is quite anyway.

Dave

That is way off from anything practical. fwiw
Should start with a 2 for Pontiac .( 1 is Chevy iirc)
Then model year.
Then Plant
Then last 6 of a VIN

What is stamped up top on passenger side front face of block - just below the head ?
What heads and exhaust manifolds are on it ?
There will be a casting date on the block right behind the distributor mounting bolt.

The Cali Carb is a deficit to performance.

Sight unseen buyers are a sellers dream , and usually what most are hoping for.

M22 sound is kind of neat. For about an hour.
Sort of like an old army jeep

I confirm what you said , I own both M22 and a 40s Willys lol .

Peter

[QUOTE=Baron Von Zeppelin;6534157]That is way off from anything practical. fwiw
Should start with a 2 for Pontiac .( 1 is Chevy iirc)
Then model year.
Then Plant
Then last 6 of a VIN

Maybe...2XN513624?

What is stamped up top on passenger side front face of block - just below the head ?

485428

What heads and exhaust manifolds are on it ?

7F6 or 7FJ and 478141 pic attached hard to read

There will be a casting date on the block right behind the distributor mounting bolt.

H201

Thanks BVZ

Don't give up on it yet.
Those are the right 455 HO roundport heads.7F6
If it has exhaust manifolds - they can only be roundport as well.

The block date is 1972 vintage.
The stamping on front face - should start with what looks like a "C" on that number. C485428 or C0485428
And should be a 2 digit alpha code like WD or YE etc.... underneath that number.

Perhaps some lacquer thinner and scotchbrite on that stamp area - and the VIN stamp down lower - can reveal more precise info. Sometimes a cellphone picture in good focus is better to look at than the naked eye.

VIN stamping should be 22Nxxxxxx
Sometimes they get double stamped or unevenly stamped.

Don't use sandpaper to clean up those stampings !
Lacquer thinner , brass wire brush , scotchbrite.
Sometimes they need a smear of dark oily grease after cleaning to create highlite.

He did some cleaning, took some pics and finally joined! 😲

The block date is 1972 vintage.
The stamping on front face - should start with what looks like a "C" on that number. C485428 or C0485428
And should be a 2 digit alpha code like WD or YE etc.... underneath that number.

Side of the block rh side rear
485428

Above water pump

C087857
WM


VIN stamping should be 22Nxxxxxx
Sometimes they get double stamped or unevenly stamped.

22N513624

Just confirming, the VIN on the block doesn't match that of the car though?

According to my Pete McCarthy book, WM is a 1972 455HO block code used on manual transmission engines;
There are two 455HO-mt engine codes;
I was about to type that I thought there were two codes because one was a code for an engine with a unitized distributor - but I grabbed one of Rocky's books, and sure enough, WM is a 1972 455HO used in A & F bodies which had a unitized distributor.

The unitized distributor was a part of the 455HO engine option, if selected for a 1972 Formula Firebird, but was a caost option on the 1972 Trans Am.

I am echoing Rocky's question because that partial vin shows that engine came from another 1972 Firebird (notice the "N" in the partial vin - that was the Norwood plant).

I kind of had a clue when you didn't realize what those heads were ,,,,
But why didn't you just tell us that you boys didn't know your azz from a hole in the ground about deciphering a Pontiac engine ?

That is a correct 1972 455 HO engine for a manual trans application that was born into either a Formula or Trans Am.
Glad you didn't give up on it !

C087857
WM

With partial VIN
22N521413. ,,,,, (you wrote 22N513624)

That engine has already been recorded in the EUN Data Base as belonging to a 72 Trans Am with build week 12B

Double check that VIN stamp again.
And check if 521413 or 513624 matches the last 6 digits of the car VIN

And check if the trim tag has 12B over to the left side.
Trim tag is under hood - on top of cowl - near windshield - on driver side.
It looks like a metal credit card with 2 rivets

Hang In There , it's looking to be MUCH better than you first thought..

This is a sample trim tag.
Where this one has 02D ... that is the build week.
The car that this engine came from would have 12B , instead of 02D.
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1730921790


This is a sample VIN tag on a random car.
Driver side - upper dash
His will look similar.
What are the last 6 digits on his VIN tag ?
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1730921790

BVZ,

According to my research, an ESN of 0087857 does correspond with a VIN in the range of 22N513624 and an early November 1971 build date.

Just wondering, where the 22N521413 VIN came from?

While we are bringing you up to speed - that isn't a stamping. btw
That is a raised numeric cast into the block at the foundry.
It's the casting number / part number to the bare block.

That is the number you originally gave us when we were asking for the stampings from the front..
Just trying to get you straightened out here Buzzo
These factoids will become useful and helpful if you ever need to help someone again.

From the EUN Data Base
That engine (engine/car) is already documented in the data base from days gone by.
Along with the build week 12B

I would be interested in the date code on the engine, back by the distributor.
Also the engine partial VIN.
Which may be the N521413?


Here is what I have, but can't find where I got it from yet. Also was from Feb 2022.


:confused:

John
H201 casting date

I can't lay positive claim as to what got charged for unitized ignition , and what did not.
But the invoice doesn't list untized ignition.
And the engine code is for unitized ignition. fwiw

The 2 VIN's we are bouncing around are 7789 units apart.
Maybe the engine is a coincidental replacement that just happened to be really close in relationship to the parameters.
We might find out

I must admin I am lost and just relaying nfo here BVZ...lol

Here is the cowl and vin diesel:

Take a picture of the partial VIN on the engine.
Passenger side by the timing cover below radiator hose outlet.

I'd about bet it is the 22N513624 (which probably was also a 72 TA)

My pics suggest it was probably an ebay ad and probably someone changed the original engine with this one.

The good thing is the engine appears to be an actual 1972 455HO.

:confused:

Not a problem Buzzo
We are here to help . Always

That's exactly the same car that John has the pictures and PHS for.
If the owner could get a good focused picture of the VIN stamp on the engine 22Nxxxxxx
We can put some of this puzzle together better.

If he can't really do that , but feels certain he has the VIN on the block nailed correctly at
22N513624 - as you last posted -
Then the engine was replaced in the past with a very comparable engine in date range and EUN range
by pure coincidental (or calculated) luck.

And could explain why the engine is coded for Unitized Ignition
But the car was not built/optioned with Unitized.

If it's not VIN matching , it is at least the next best thing to it.
He's not dead in the water.

The other MT block code for 72 was WD, with points

72 formula 455 had mandatory unitized blocks so WM only on a 4spd.

72 T/A could be either way WD or WM by the way it was ordered.

Saying that, I'm not sure if unitized would show up as a charged item on a Formula on invoice separate or was it part of the charge for both "Ram Air" and "unitized".

72 TA block number
 

Iam the owner of the 72 you have been helping di numbers on which I appreciate. I finally signed up for the forum below is a pic of the block number looks like I had it wrong after all
22N613624

Yet another photo... SorryAttachment 642477

Sent from my Surface Duo using Tapatalk

Well from what I’ve seen you have a great car!
the fact that it has a replacement manual transmission coded 1972 455HO from another Firebird is great!

I hope you enjoy the car!

It's going to be 513624
613624 would put the EUN way way too far out of sync.
If a 6xxxxx is even possible , 72 was a low production year on the whole Norwood deal.

But it's not hard to think it's a 6 by its current appearance.

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1730957633

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1730957633

I agree with unruhjonny - do whatever it needs and enjoy the heck out of it.
It's 1984 and you just bought a cool used TA - crack the whip on that mule.

The subject vehicle at some unknown time, when for sale in Illinois.
Looks like she got a deluxe interior , power window , and later year model power lock , upgrades.

https://www.google.com/search?q=2v87...M&vssid=mosaic

https://www.google.com/search?q=2v87...M&vssid=mosaic

https://www.google.com/search?q=2v87...M&vssid=mosaic

https://www.google.com/search?q=2v87...M&vssid=mosaic

I did buy the car in Illinois. When you say upgrades it didn't originally have deluxe interior , power windows and power door locks?
I find it a bit strange myself someone wouldn't have documented finding pretty much the exact motor that would have went in that car excluding the vin. But I'm sure you guys have seen all kinds of crazy stuff.
Earlier you mentioned the Eun I'm not familiar with that if you have time to explain Id love to learn.

This explains it and has a form to upload data.

EUN Form

And this is page to see the data I have added.

EUN Search


:)

Actually there is nothing odd about it;
Odds are the original motor was gone, and the person who put the car together found what they deemed to be the most correct motor to put in it.
The additional options fall under this as well - it used to be fairly common for people to change interiors or add period options as it suited them - and there was no downside to this, because the changes would often result in the car being worth more.

EUN = Engine Unit Number;
This number was stamped on the block at the time the engine was being assembled at the plant where it was made.
The engine unit number was recorded in factory documents for warranty purposes, when the car was originally sold.