RAIV valve springs
 

Basic info:
This is a stock 1970 RAIV. The engine was assembled 10+ years ago with stock parts and rotated every few months. I broke one pushrod, so I replaced them all and also installed polylock rocker nuts since I no longer trusted the old lock nuts to stay in place after being removed. All the valves were adjusted and she started up on the first 1/4 crank and ran smooth as silk. I took her to be aligned (about 2 miles) and on the way home a rocker came off the valve and pushrod (see photo) on cylinder #7.
the polylock was tight, there is no apparent damage to the pushrod, rocker or nut.
So either I did not adjust that valve correctly or perhaps there is something wrong with the spring? The engine has about 2 hours of run time on it total.
I'm going to reassemble and readjust that valve (the installed height of the spring seems correct and the same as the others), but should I be concerned about the other springs and should I just replace all the springs?
Were the RAIV springs special, and where can I get replacements?
Thanks.

More thread showing on that polyloc
than the others.

First off if the stock RA4!rocker studs are not flat on top a poly lock will not hold adjustment right.

Next your issue may be as simple as just not using the poly locks right.
The proper way is to make the adjustment you want, then set the Allen down tight, then tighten up the outer nut a 1/8th to 1/4 turn more to fully lock everything together.

Also did you use the needed RA4 length push rods when you got those new ones?

I guess you’re only running .469” lift and not .519” due to those Comp Cams 1.5 rockers?

Check lobe lift on #7 exhaust.

Sorry, forgot to post that when you make that last 1/8 to 1/4 turn of the outer poly body you need to hold the Allen set in place.

Hopefully it's not this, but......
 

^^^^THIS^^^^

That's a possible symptom of a lobe going away.........

And, with the obvious difference in threads showing on the locking screw of THAT polylock, the odds go way up.

Good luck!

Well, the correct answer is maybe yes to all.
The rockers are 1.65 and the correct length/diameter RAIV pushrods were used On that #7 cylinder exhaust, even with the allen screw out and the polylock bottomed out, there is still too much play. The pushrod is intact and clearly by feel seated in the lifter. The rocker stud is tight and identical to the others. The valve spring is the same height as the others and within spec. Therefore either the valve is stuck open or the cam lobe is "wiped". Neither scenario is good. I had hoped to have this car ready for Mecum in January, but that does not seem likely now. I'll check the compression in #7 tomorrow, but I'm betting a rebuild is coming. Damn. So close.

Might not of had the push rod seated in lifter correctly, I've done that before.

GT

Don't be surprised if the compression is normal.
 

Losing the lobe shouldn't affect valve seal.

So long as the valve is opening and closing, and the valve is sealing and the rings are good, there will probably still be pretty good compression.

If you're able to turn the poly-lock down to the end of the threads, and the rocker is still loose, you've either wiped the lobe or collapsed a lifter.

Either one will require the intake and valley pan to come off, so you might as well just pull them off now and know for certain.

Good luck!

Excuse my ignorance, but who makes roller tip only Pontiac rocker arms in a 1.65 ratio?

Comp Cams

OK, valvetrain Gurus, here are some more pieces of the puzzle.
All the valve springs and valves are at the same height (with rockers removed). A straight edge lies flat along all of them. Ditto for the tops of the 7/16" screw in rocker studs. I re-torqued all just to be safe. Nothing moved. If my rudimentary knowledge of Pontiac valvetrain geometry is correct, this most likely means all the valves are seated, none are bent and hooray, I don't (probably) have to take off the heads.
All the rockers were adjusted on the base cam until the pushrods barely spun with my fingers, then 1/2 turn more. None of the allen locking screws had come loose on the polylocks.
When I removed the rest of the rockers and pushrods, I found 3 pushrods with the ball popped out and one with the ball pushed into the tube (see photo). WTF? To me this indicates something amiss on the lifter/cam side, and I'm betting bad lifters. IIRC, these were "Rhoades lifters" with variable lift (less at idle for smoother cam and more vacuum). Does this make sense? On exhaust #7, where the rocker came off, I can depress the lifter plunger with the pushrod with minimal effort. All the rest no depression. So best scenario, the lifters are bad but the cam is intact and the valves are OK which means only pulling the intake and replacing lifters and pushrods and no removal of heads or (god forbid) cam (which means engine out).
Does any of this make sense in an automotive engineering manner of thinking?
Mecum Jan 2025 is now out of the question but I can wait for 2026. Bummer.

At this point I for sure want to know how much seat pressure you have?

How much open pressure you have at .520” lift ?

What brand push rods those were, or from where they came from?
Is the internal C clip still in #7 lifter?

Yeah, seat pressure, open pressure - I got no idea how to check. The heads were assembled around 2010 by Yow's Machine shop, known locally for their expertise in Pontiac engines. They did 2 RAIII's, 2 RAIV's and a 455HO for me with zero issues. Sadly, Yow's machine shop no longer exists. The heads were fully machined with hardened valve seats, new valves, springs, the whole works.
I guess they could have screwed up somewhere. The crank, pistons, cam and the rest of the engine were assembled by yours truly. More likely I made some error along the way.
Or bad lifters. I like that better.

Are RAIV lifters anything special? What are the specs for RAIV springs and where can I obtain new ones if needed?

Original lifters are different, less travel.
The pushrods are also longer than other pushrods.
They are also wider than other pushrods.

Those ball-ends being broke off suggest a binding or misalignment issue?
The rockers a Pontiac rocker or a Ford rocker used as a Pontiac?

Pushrods too short?

:confused:

Just thinking out loud here......
 

If the lifter on #7 exhaust depresses without resistance, it has FAILED and you're gonna have to replace it. You should probably replace all (16) lifters.

You might as well pull off the intake and valley cover so you can get a better view of what is going on in the lifter valley with your cam and lifters.

The multiple pushrod failures is troubling, especially the fact that the came apart. Hopefully no debris has 'migrated' into the bottom end.....


Here's what I would do:

Pull off the carb and intake and valley cover. It might take an hour or so. just get it out of your way now.

Inspect the lifters for this side - the ones you already took the pushrods out of. Do they ALL still have the retaining rings in them? Do any of them besides the one that failed look weird? Tilted cups inside or ???

Then inspect the lifters, pushrods and rockers for the OTHER side. Again looking for anything that appears 'odd'.

Carefully remove the rockers and pushrods from the passenger's side. Watch out for more disintegrated pushrods. Be careful to keep any pieces - like those balls that you found on the other side - from falling into the oil pan.

CAREFULLY remove the lifter on #7 exhaust and inspect the bottom end. Is it still nice and polished looking or concave?

Inspect that lobe on the camshaft. Is it polished or scuffed and worn? I'm hoping that you get lucky and can salvage the camshaft.

Continue with the other lifters, carefully inspecting each lobe on the camshaft. You might need to rotate the engine to see the top of each lobe and verify that it's not wearing abnormally. That will be easier with the spark plugs removed.

With the multiple pushrods coming apart and at least the one lifter failing, I'd suspect that you will find more problems as you disassemble the valvetrain and camshaft/lifter stuff.

Let us know what you find.

Good luck!

True RA4 factory lifters are limited travel.
Only .050" adjustment range where as any other hydro lifter has 100" to maybe .120" adjustment range.

I should be able to disassemble the intake/valley cover today and see what's what. I'm thinking the springs are too tight, causing multiple lifter/pushrod failure. If the cam is OK, I will call Butler and follow their recommendation for new valve springs, pushrods and lifters and put them in. My neighbor is a drag racer and he might have a valve spring pressure tester just to see what they are pulling.

Just a heads up, those style rockers with the cheap ball type pushrods don't mix.

Those rockers specifically need a hardened pushrod, and that used to be stated in the paperwork, don't think that has changed as the rockers are still the same. They will chew up the soft cheap pushrods in a hurry, don't ask how I found that out. Really has nothing to do with spring pressure, I chewed up those ball style pushrods with those comp rockers decades ago on a SBC using stock Z28 springs for a flat tappet.
Switched to a good one piece hardened push rod and all was good until I then found out the fulcrum on the rocker turns black and blue because the ball rides on the sides rather than fitting properly down into the pocket. So the rockers came off and went in the trash.

Smith Brothers make some very nice one piece pushrods. https://www.pushrods.net/ Are these the rockers you used? https://butlerperformance.com/i-2445...a-1452-16.html
Says there only good for 350 pounds maximum pressure. Is this type of rocker OK to use with polylocks? If I were you, I would change lifters, rockers and pushrods.
I'm guess your lifters are your problem. Collapsed lifter. Your cam should be fine. Easy to check though. Like mentioned remove valley pan is a must.
I guessing you may want to make sure the springs will work with that cam. Installed height, Max lift, Coil bind, Open and closed pressures.
I'm hoping everything else is ok for you.

I have not heard good stuff about those rockers .

The ball style, even Melling brand, RAIV pushrods are not great quality. I bent one turning a motor over by hand when the HS got in a bind on the rocker stud hex checking V-P clearance! I have 15 I can send you! I even switched my RAIV head motor to 3/8" pushrods

Get some other rockers HS, Crowers, heck even stamped 1.65s and then check pushrod length and get good one piece ones from Comp etc!

That's suprising because Butler sells those very rockers for RAIV (1.65) applications. I ordered their pushrods, so maybe the pushrods they sell are better than stock. I'll call Chuck at Butler in the morning and inquire.
[/COLOR]

Well, thanks for the good wishes, but everything is most certainly NOT OK. Not by a longshot.
I opened up the valley cover and everything looked pretty good. All the lifters came out easily, there were no metal fragments and the cam lobes I could see seemed fine.
I checked the tops of the lifters - no abnormalities. I checked the bottom of the lifters and 15/16 were fine. Remember exhaust #7 where the rocker came off the pushrod and the lifter plunger moved too easily? Check out how much lifter has been ground away. It was soft because the bottom had been ground away into the oil cavity. Bam, no oil, no lifter piston pump up plus a shortened lifter and voila - rocker comes off.
I did not have the courage tonight to rotate the cam to get a look at that lobe. I'm guessing it is toast. But what is the problem with this drivetrain geometry that is breaking pushrods? 7 of the 16 pushrods had the balls broken or were deformed below the ball. I'm thinking the springs.
I need a drink.

That motor has had a lot of metal go through it so it's going to have to come out and be completely disassembled and inspected.

yup

Agree 100%.....Those rockers suck. You'd be better off with stamped steel....probably the LEAST of your worries at this point...

Everything looks very dry with no oil?

Dam, I feel your pain. Sorry to see that happen. Ya, like mentioned engine out and disassembled. Spring pressures will have to be checked to see what is going on there for sure. As far as the ball on the pushrods breaking, maybe something binding, or to much spring pressure for that style pushrod. I would follow post 20 from Formulajones. advise. Was there any interference from those rockers in relation to the spring/retainers? Maybe others with more experience than me can chime in and offer advise.

I'm curious about what brand and weight oil your running? Thanks.

Agreed.
We may look at the result of a clogged oil gallery and to heavy/thick oil usage?

This is very sad because it all needs to come down now to get that grit out and to see how the cylinder walls , piston skirts and ring faces look.

I fully agree post 28.

Everything looks very dry!

There's no little pockets of oil pooled up on the Exh port top side of the head like there should be below the valve cover plane, and no pockets of oil as there should be sparaticlly in the lifter valley area.

That bad lifter could not have bleed off that much pressure and volume to cause that in my opinion.

How does a different lifter placed in 7 Exh feel?

Does it rock any more then one of the other lifter bores?

I have nothing against Butler and I know there are those here that hold him up high so this might ruffle someone's feathers but just because butler sells a part doesn't make it a good part.
Those rockers have been around for decades and there are even reports on this forum, which is a rather small group in comparison, of the very same complaints I mentioned. It was back in the mid 90's when I discovered those issues on my own engine and the machine shop contacted comp at that time about the problem. I'm talking about the bluing issue from heat created from the ball and socket at the pivot point. That fell on deaf ears at the time and as far as I know 30 years later comp hasn't changed a thing about them. Take one off and clean it up real good, then put the ball in, look up through the slot on the bottom and you'll likely see how the ball doesn't touch. That's because it rides on the sides of the ball, taking all the load and it creates a ton of heat, so much it will turn the sides of the rocker blue. I had them turn blue on the dyno with just 2-3 pulls.
I had those same ball socket pushrods too and those rockers chewed up a half dozen of them in a very short amount of run time. That's when I realized the recommendation for a hardened pushrod with those rockers. Made a mess in my engine too. I haven't recommended them or used them since.

Ultimately it's your engine and your wallet, I'm just passing along my experience with those things.

Just to add, as long as you run a good pushrod with them, those rockers will likely work and function just fine, as long as you don't mind the blueing from the heat created from a poor fitting ball. Those rockers are made from some super hard material, and I never saw any metal created from that ball issue at the fulcrum point, so that wasn't my worry. But getting hot enough to change colors I didn't like.

I think someone here found that a stock ball from a factory stamped steel rocker actually fit those comp rockers better than the balls that comp supplies with them. So if you want to experiment and try that route to possibly save some money it might be an option.

I believe the difference in the rocker balls is the stock ones don’t have the grooves so they hold the oil in the rocker longer for better lubrication.

It loooks dry because I carefully cleaned away all the oil looking for metal particles. Oil was pooled everywhere it normally collects. Rockers were oily. I found no metal (I went over everything with a magnet). Who sells a better rocker in 1.65? Specifics - part number, website, cost if you have the info. I'm not worried about cost at this point because it's going to be ugly no matter what I do.
10W-30, Valvoline I think, non-synthetic. I had a stuck thermostat issue so it always ran hot also (now fixed).

Harland Sharp. Sorry to hear of your troubles. Been there, done that...and it sux. But NOT the end of the world....more money and more time is all thats needed. (drinks optional) So out she comes for a full open up, crankshaft removal, clean up, clean out and inspection. You would be amazed at how well even the cheapest oil filter FILTERS! Hopefully your oil doesn't look like a fairy Princess EXPLODED in it with all her glitter. Also note FULLY disassemble your oil pump with extra care to clean the check ball area/surfaces.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/c...5/make/pontiac

Once you get it put back together use one of your OLD pushrods to check your geometry BEFORE ordering new hardednd 1 pc pushrods.

Also assuming those are full length 7/16 studs and not the bottle neck 7/16 with 3/8 threads? IIRC the 351C FORD rocker stud is the swap to do that as the BBC studs are TOO long and bottom out in the head BEFORE they seat on the push rod guide plate ;)

You have to put one in there to see what I'm talking about. The balls supplied with the comp rockers don't sit down in the pocket, they ride up on the edges, which supports all the weight from the spring, turns the sides of the rocker blue from the heat generated from a very small contact patch.
The ball is supposed to fit the complete contour of the pivot area, not ride up on the edges.
Hope that makes more sense

I think the rocker balls are original - mine have grooves.

The grooved ones are even worse when there's not the needed radial contact area.

Comp roller tip rocker arms are supplied with grooved balls. They are physically larger than factory Pontiac balls.

The company that originally made the lifters that ended up in the OP's engine used to hardness check the face of every lifter they sent out the door. They stopped this process around the time the cam lobe / lifter / oil debacle blew up. I always thought this was a cost saving move that would have negative consequences.

Sad deal..... A lot of work, money and aggravation by the end user but I'm guessing the lifter manufacturer is happy they will sell another set of lifters.

Not Rhoades lifters this time or ever again.*
Butler wanted to sell me roller hydraulic lifters which would mean several modifications and $2300 that I'm not looking to do. The new cam will be extra gently broken in with Break-In oil, extra zinc and a lot of bourbon. The specific bourbon will be selected after a rigorous research progect which is ongoing. Beer will be the catalyst of choice for the dismantling/reassembly of the car. I'm leaning towards Corona.

I have used at least 11 sets of Rhoads lifters in the last decade in builds of many motors besides Ponchos with no issues whatsoever.
I think your lifter failure and crumbling push rods are somehow linked.

Steve, it's gotta be the springs. I'll know soon enough.

I don't think it's Rhoades fault, they use the best lifters available and modify the internals. Personally I wouldn't second guess the hydraulic roller choice..... They break plenty and when they do it can be catastrophic.

[QUOTE=Jimbobeast;6539233]Not Rhoades lifters this time or ever again.*
Butler wanted to sell me roller hydraulic lifters which would mean several modifications and $2300 that I'm not looking to do. The new cam will be extra gently broken in with Break-In oil, extra zinc and a lot of bourbon. The specific bourbon will be selected after a rigorous research progect which is ongoing. Beer will be the catalyst of choice for the dismantling/reassembly of the car. I'm

Factory RAIV springs has 115 lb @ 1.812" installed height and about 340 lb open @ 1.2913".

HTH

Yeah that's pretty typical flat tappet stuff. I break in cams with that frequently with no issue.

So if those springs are correct and installed properly your problem is elsewhere.

Possibly sitting for 10 years before starting the engine and frequently turning the engine over might be concerning. Was there any break in lube left on the cam?

There are sill remnants of break in lube on the sides of the cam lobes, but the cam was not visible.