A LeMans joins the Break Away Squad
 

A new LeMans is heading my way. Wasn't looking but a friend sent me a link a while ago and I got sucked in!

It's a pretty nifty LeMans, factory 350HO high option car. It's a convertible with TH400, AC, STT 3.55, power steering, disc brakes and some nice pluses like power antenna, wood wheel, rally II's, gauges, hood tach, power windows and seat. Buckets and console. Even was ordered with G70 redline fiberglass tires (has radial reds now)

It's an unrestored car with factory paint, interior, convertible top etc and mileage is low 20's (not documented but obvious when looking at the car).

Negatives include a heavy wax type under coat (Ziebart plugs), vintage aftermarket radio-8 track and it looks like it's been sitting for decades so probably will need a lot of little things to get it safe and reliable

all original Interior

Engine bay is pretty much untouched, Didn't check the VIN on the block yet but dates are all good and correct XU under the EUN.

Nice! Man, you sure find em (or they find you)

Interesting tidbit is that the standard axle on the 350 HO was 3.55, even with AC. GTO and Judge with AC was always 3.23 or numerically lower.

Gotta wonder what the original story on the car was? Who would spend over $5k on a LeMans back in 69?? Maybe a guy who couldn't get or afford insurance on a GTO? Or a rich kid who's dad bought him a car but said no muscle car, but the kid was crafty?

I ran the pricing on this car versus the same options on a base engine GTO and the GTO was only $80 more, on a $5,000 car that's not even 2%. For $80 you got a lot: 50 more cubes and 20 horses, dual snorkel air cleaner, engine chrome dress-up, Endura bumper, hood scoops on the hood, nicer parking lights and the name! Seems like $80 well spent.

Some people liked chrome bumpers more the Endura bumper, I suppose that might be the reason even though the chrome front bumper was optional on the GTO.

Higher GTO insurance costs for the same basic car might have been a factor as well.

Great car, the color combo, options and condition are wonderful.

I thought the same thing.......definitely something fishy going on with that order.

The car is exactly as stated on the PHS. No way a dealer ordered this for inventory. Must of been a customer order with a hefty deposit. If it got traded in two or three years later it would be ugly resale value. Typical LeMans ragtop with AC, automatic and 350 etc was about $1,000 less than this one but average used car buyer wouldn’t give you 10 cents extra.

Neat car - congrats!

fantastic car to add to your collection. congratulations on the aquisition.
im trying to remember but i cant recall seeing a lemans with the cornering lamps. pretty rare on any line, seeing all the options have you asked jim if it has two PHS sheets? maybe it was used as a show car.
beautiful color combo.

I didn’t ask Jim because the PHS date jives perfectly with the VIN sequence. It was shipped to a dealer in Parma ((Cleveland) Ohio around April 1st 69.

The car has a box of old papers but didn’t have a chance to study them during the inspection. I’m supposed to get the car in about two weeks. I haven’t seen the car in person but my friend who restores GTO’s inspected it for me.

Very nice car my first 69 bird was white w red interior. There’s nothing classier IMO it always looks good unlike black or silver w white that get old and don’t look good white holds forever.

Great car I’d have probably jumped on it also

I have another LeMans with those cornering lights. I prefer a GTO without them because the fender is so clean but the LeMans with the lettering and the chrome nose it blends in better.

Not the most vital option but it’s a conversation starter and it is kind of nice turning on unlit street or driveway, surprisingly bright.

Forgot the pic…

I have a GTO with them. It came with them so I left them but I’d never add them, takes away from the clean look.

This car must have had the left fender replaced at some point because the light on that side is at least one inch too far forward. The right side is in the correct spot. You’d think the bloody body guy could have walked to the other side and look and measure…

Wow it's a beauty! Love the white on red, great looking car

Great addition! Enjoy it! As I get older I seemed to be drawn more to the Lemans & Tempest's

Very unique Lemans North, your original buyers scenario is likely as well.

That's a rare one, and it's so original. Great colors too. Congrats on finding another one.

Sweeeeeeeeet!

My gosh North! You sure know how to find them. Congrats! She is a beauty!

Dennis

I was looking into the production numbers, they built about 4,200 HO's in A bodies (2 to 1 automatic to manual) and they built about 210,000 non GTO A bodies so the take rate was exactly 2%. I theory that means that a bit over a hundred LeMans convertibles had the HO, however I'd think that the sportier and higher trim models would have had a much higher take rate than Tempests and 4 doors etc so they probably made a few hundred HO ragtops. Never see any, I suspect the lack of any identification led to a really low collector interest and survival rate.

I notice they raised the HP ratings (from 320 in 1968 to 330 in A body and 325 in birds), was there anything behind the increase or just marketing decisions?

Unreal collection. When will you be open for a group tour! Congratulations on another fine addition.

North, the HP increase was due to going to large valve #48 heads and upgrades of the camshaft to the 067 for TH400's and and the 068 for the sticks.

The below is from Fred Simmonds:

I saw a document at the GM Heritage Center that had the 350HO production by body style. Here it is:

Tempest 2-door coupe: 85
Tempest 4-door sedan: 10

Custom S 2-door coupe: 87
Custom S 2-door hardtop: 597
Custom S 4-door hardtop: 30
Custom S 2-door ragtop: 45
Custom S 4-door sedan: 55

LeMans 2-door coupe: 117
LeMans 2-door hardtop: 2,687
LeMans 4-door hardtop: 254
LeMans 2-door ragtop: 271
Total: 4,238 A-Bodies w/350HO

1969 Tempest Custom S 4 door models:
23539 (4 door hardtop): 350 HO engines - all transmissions: 30 of 3,918 total 23539's with all engines
23569 (4 door sedan): 350 HO engines - all transmissions 55 of 16,532 total 23569's with all engines
Total Tempest with 350 HO: 95
Total Custom S with 350 HO: 814
Total LeMans with 350 HO: 3,329

I don't have any data on engine / transmission combinations. Hope this helps.

Fred

Hi Dennis,

Thanks! I had forgotten about that listing.

I was able to find out from GM Heritage Center that Pontiac made 176 ‘68 350HO manual trans convertible Lemans’. They did not differentiate between 3 speed and 4 speed manual trans though.
Assuming a 2 to 1 ratio of auto to manual trans in the 271, 1969 Lemans’s 350HO convertibles (as mentioned in previous post) then the breakdown could be 180 autos and 91 manuals.
Either way with all those options I’d bet there were very view like it.

Those numbers don’t seem to add up as expected. If they made 171 manual HO LeMans convertibles that means only 105 automatics. It is possible but highly unlikely that they’d have twice as many manuals when the overall HO number is twice as many automatics.

Btw, another interesting math item with the HO is how good of a value it was… it cost $175.30 and the 350 2bbl cost $110.59. So $64.42. However the HO included duals which cost $30.54 so the actual extra for the engine itself was only $33.88. 65 extra horses for only $34 is a hell of a bargain. I guess most buyers who cared would just get a GTO and many other buyers didn’t want to pay extra for super gas.


One thing that must be rare is the dual exhaust option on the 350 2bbl. I’ve never seen an invoice with that option ever.

What numbers don’t add up? 1968 or 1969?
The info referencing the 1969 HO Lemans’s verts shows 271 total. So using the 2:1 ratio 91 manuals and twice that for auto trans is 180 which gives you the 271 shown.

The only info I have for 1968 Lemans 350HO verts was for manual trans (176) I didn’t get the auto trans #’s

Sorry, I didn’t catch that. You were talking about 1968!

FWIW, 388 HO LeMans ragtops built in 1968, of which 176 were manuals, the difference automatic.

Not sure if the reference will help, or if there's a pattern carried over into 1969.

Info from GM Heritage Center.

I have some kind of illness. I've owned a 68 GTO for about 50 years, and for some reason ... I think I like the Lemans more. I like the console more, I like the bumper, I like less pressure to "perform" :) Just seems like an easier car to own and drive.

As always John, neat car and love all the options. A most unique Le Mans.

They all come and find you! Best of luck with it.

We looked this car over several times. Most did not catch it was a HO car. Neat options and nice color combination. This makes the second car I looked at that you ended up purchasing! Few years back you bought a 69 GTO RAIII Expresso Brown with Parchment interior out of the Tampa area. I was to "slow" to pull the trigger on that one. A friend down from Canada for the auction told us you bought it. I thought of course! This is right in your "sweet spot".

I owned one of the nicest Lemans I have ever seen. A 1969 Warwick Blue with medium blue interior and white vinyl top. Over the top on options. What the original owner could not get (ordered very late in the year) he had the dealer install after delivery. Originally a California car that came to Florida. I was 4th owner and spoke to second owner. Here is a brief video clip of car. Note I did not install the wing. I would never have done that to this car. I also corrected several items (exhaust extensions on upside down). It is one of the cars I wish I had back. Everything worked as intended. It went to Norway.
https://youtu.be/ce96fL219-k?feature=shared

Beautiful cars

Mcronk, was there a 4bbl 350 in 1969 that was NOT an HO? Just curious.

I don't believe so. At least not for the A body.

I remember that blue LeMans, sweet car. I don’t remember why I let it pass, must have already busted my acquisition budget for the year!

I also remember looking at a really nice convertible a few years ago, also Warwick and a very high factory option load and nice clean California history. It had a godawful set of aluminum wheels that just ruined the look.

There were four possible engines in a 69 LeMans (or Tempest or Custom S). Standard was a one barrel regular fuel 250 OHC six making 175 hp. Optional through the Sprint package was a 4 bbl premium fuel version of the OHC making 230 hp (215 with auto trans). Also optional and by far the most popular was the 2 bbl regular fuel 350 making 265 hp. Lastly was the 350 HO which made 330 horses with a 4bbl and premium fuel.

There was no “regular” 4bbl 350.

Earlier in this thread I notice that the 350HO went from twice as many manuals to automatics in 68 to the reverse in 69. I suspect the reason was because 69 was the first year you could get a 3speed turbo hydramatic on any A body (68 hydramatic was GTO only).

Similar thing happened in 67 to GTO when the first offered the th400.

Interestingly the only automatic choice on GTO, Sprint and 350HO was the three speed hydramatic (th400 on GTO HO and th350 on the Sprint.

On the other two engines (1bbl OHC and 350 2bbl) you had a choice of automatic: the 2 speed or the th350.

An interesting variation to this last point was the 350 2bbl when equipped with AC. Until late in the model year with that set up if you ordered the three speed automatic you were billed the lower th350 price but the car would be built with a th400. In the last month or two of the model year they dropped this practice and installed the th350 even with AC. There is no bulletin about it but the two likely causes were either production capacity constraints on the new for 69 th350 and/or some durability concerns about the torque and car weight combination for this lighter duty transmission.

I assumed the TH400 was needed to deal with the higher torque and/or "assumed" aggressive driving style with a 350HO.

Why would AC need a TH400 over a TH350? I never understood that one. Did the fluid in a TH350 run hotter and stress the cooling system with AC?

I can confirm the 69 350 2bbl when ordered with A/C got the turbo 400. The 69 Lemans I had was equipped that way with the VIN matching transmission.

Apologize if I wasn't clear.

I understand the TH400 was there with AC in 69, just don't understand the logic behind it. Is there something about AC that would stress the transmission more?

As you note, a year later the 70 350 2bbl with AC had a TH350... so maybe like you said, it was just more about availability of the TH350?

Interesting bunch of changes then. Would be cool to have been a fly on the wall when all those decisions were made.

Mike

I only mentioned the weight theory because AC adds about 125 lbs to the car, might have pushed it over a certain weight threshold?