remote battery woes
 

Back in '97 my red 70 GTO convertible was a show car. The trunk was painted body color and the battery and starter solenoid were moved back there. It looked neat. When cold, the starter spins like a banshee. When hot it barely turns over the 455 block. The battery and starter are both grounded directly to the frame, all starter cables (including the long run from the trunk to starter) are I believe 2-0 gauge (maybe 2 gauge?) - really thick with professionally applied terminals. The starter is an aftermarket high torque mini-starter with an asbestos type heat blanket. I have exhaust manifolds, not headers and they run close to the starter like a stock engine. The battery is new-ish and has a zillion CCA.
What else can I do to improve the embarassing hot sluggish starter problem (besides putting the battery back in front).

AWG 2 gauge wire (just the metal, not including the insulation) is just a bit over 1/4". AWG 00 (2 ought or 2-0) is just a shade under 3/8".

What Scarebird said.


The engine needs a big/good ground to the frame, plus body to the frame.
I usually run 2 cables from trunk to engine, 1 ground and other the positive.
(Firebird, no full frame)


:)

00 definitely

Yes, same 00 wire from starter to frame. I can fabricate a nice heat shield and try it in place of the blanket. I do NOT have a ground from engine to frame except for the starter. Can't hurt to try that also.

Which mini starter are you using?
I installed a Jegs 1.4kW (~1.9hp) rated denso style starter for my 455 and it struggles when warm I suspect it may need need new solenoid contacts after 14 years of use but it wasn't that great when new. I'm considering getting a 2kW (~2.7hp) upgrade in the same style but would like to know your type first.

I've been through this decades ago in a 73 T/A. Don't try to use the frame as a ground, there is too much resistance in the steel that sucks up amps needed to crank the engine when hot. A hot Pontiac engine will need 4-500 Amps to spin over.

Run a negative cable all the way up to the engine same size as the positive cable attach it to a bellhousing bolt near the starter. It will crank plenty fast no matter how hot the engine or starter gets. Every configuration I tried using the car as a ground, failed when everything got heat soaked. Even with a commercial battery and a freshly rebuilt high torque starter (gear reduction mini starters hadn't yet been invented in the mid 70s).

That's my experience, and how I solved the problem, never had another slow crank after running a ground cable all the way to the engine.

I would put the battery back in the factory location.

I used to have a 1964 GTO that I bracket raced, I put the battery in the trunk. I used 2-0 welding cable for the positive that ran through the frame rail and also utilized a Ford solenoid for sure starting, the battery was grounded to the frame using 2-0 cable as well. I also grounded the body to the frame with a copper strap and grounded the engine to the frame with 2-0 cable, I was using a Pontiac starter nothing fancy.

After racing the car for over a decade with no starting issues ever I decided to quit racing and returned the car to the streets. I moved the battery back to where it belongs, under the hood. Easy access and just better all around if you need to charge the battery or jump start the car.

I pulled probably 20 pounds of 2-0 cable out of the frame during the process. When I was drag racing the car I did whatever I could to get weight off the front end, relocating the battery, removing the front inner fenders, some of the bumper bracing, heater and wiper assemblies etc. I put everything back on the car to make it comfortable again and putting the battery back up front just made sense.

I really can't remember the brand of starter presently in the car and my RAIV car is currently on the lift, but I will look through my receipts.

Now this might just work. Are you saying that the frame ground passes marginally enough current when the starter is cold but is insufficient whenever the starter gets hot and requires more amps?

Yes he is.


:)

Exactly, Steel is a poor conductor for high amp draw situations. Also as ambient air temp increases on any conductor the resistance increases.

On the top 11 metals used for conducting electric, iron/steel is #9. It is also continually rusting due to the moisture in the air, causing conduction problems.

Stop and think about how your OEM battery cable system is laid out. The main negative cable is 99% of the time connected directly to the engine where the highest amp draw in the whole car is. Moving the battery to the trunk doesn't change that need to have the main negative cable connected to the engine where the highest draw is.

All the secondary grounds are run through the body because the amp draw can be supported by the body and frame, also because the engineers/bookkeeper's save running a separate ground wire to all the accessories. The body ground isn't done because it's the best type of design, it's to save cost on each car.

Also think if the last time you had lighting problems and how many times the whole problem is bad grounds through the body, or frame.

Think also about a snowplow with a electric pump on it, They don't use a body/frame ground to run that pump motor. They run a dedicated ground cable to the pump from the battery, same principle. It's not cheap to run a welding cable ground wire from the battery, but it does work............:thumbup:

I can just about guarantee you'll sidestep you slow warm crank problems with a dedicated ground from battery to engine.

This!

00 cable from battery to engine it is!

For a show car I dont know why you would move the battery to the trunk?If judged im sure it would result in loss of points.Tom

Lots of people use the frame or body for the grd return....& have trouble free operation. Steel has 7 times the resistance of copper. So when the CSA of the steel is 7 times [ or more ] the CSA of a copper cable, the resistance will be the same...or less. The frame or body is not the problem. Poor connections or connections with insufficient contact area will add resistance. Also, starter motors come in different HP ratings. King of the Hill such as the MSD dyna force produce over 3.0 hp.

The fact that it cranks 'like a banshee' when cold suggests the cabling etc is ok. You may have a 'tight' engine that needs a higher HP starter. The starter may also be getting hot, internal copper armature winding increasing resistance from heat...& losing power.

Your explanation of 7 times more resistance from steel conductors means that all your ground connections would need 7 times more surface area on the frame to carry the same amps. :noidea:

I can almost guarantee that you'll have more voltage drop running through the frame than you'll have running the same distance through a copper conductor. Voltage drop also drops amps.

Next time you look at a truck with a power tailgate where the power has to run from the front of the truck to the rear bumper, take note if they run a dedicated ground wire, or just use the frame.

This isn't the first post on this forum that has a slow cranking engine with a body /frame ground, and a trunk mounted battery. A Pontiac with headers will really make the starter pull a lot of amps when hot, been there many times troubleshooting slow crank Pontiac engines. There's a reason the factory used a tin shield around the starter to deflect heat.

By using the frame, you also double the amount of ground connections from 2 to at least 4, more places to have problems with faulty ground connections. I believe in the KISS principle that the less to go wrong the better your chances are of being trouble free.

OP, you can take your pick with how to deal with the problem.

Nope.
You are assuming that the frame resistance is only 7 times the CSA of a copper grd cable, when in reality, the CSA is much more than 7 times. If the frame was 14 times the CSA of an equivalent copper cable. the frame resistance would be half that of a copper cable, with a corresponding reduction in the voltage drop [ loss ]. The connecting lugs are nearly all copper, but tin plated. There are numerous resistance points in the starter cct, both on the neg & pos side which add to the total res in the cct.
If you had a copper cable for the grd from the battery in the trunk, it will heat up from the current draw during cranking. Because copper is a good conductor of heat, it heats up very quickly...& it's resistance increases....& causes more voltage drop. Using the steel frame as the grd, it heats up much more slowly because it is a poorer heat conductor than copper & will have less voltage drop than the copper cable. It is the sum of all the voltage drops in the cct that reduces the final voltage that the starter sees.

OK, I guess...huh?
So, if the CCA's are more than the CSA's then the total neg and pos res in the cct could be 7 or 14 times the res of copper unless I cut the frame in half and pre-heat a tin shield that is grounded 4 or more times.
Yes, it is all clear now. :-)
I think I will first try a dedicated 00 cable from battery to starter ground, then if that does not work a MSD Dynaforce starter with heat shield (maybe minus the insulating blanket).
The car is a modified 1970 GTO convertible, 462 CI, 6-speed, 4-wheel discs, fuel injection, etc., hence the battery in the trunk for looks. It took 1st place in concours modified at the 1997 GTOAA convention in Atlanta.

You sound like every engineer I've ever dealt with, you quote books written by other engineers. You think every application has ideal conditions at all times. When their fixes don't work, they blame something else.

I've done the exact same thing with a 1973 455 T/A, and tried every way I could to use the frame for a ground. I welded the ground bolt to the trunk floor and used heavy ground straps to the engine. When hot, the engine did the exact same thing he describes. What solved the problem? Running a dedicated ground cable to the bellhousing bolt, never a problem after that dedicated ground was connected. Please explain what the books say about that phenomenon.

In real world cases most starter motor powered accessories on a vehicle have a dedicated ground to the accessory from the battery. Why would someone do that if they simply could use the body/frame for half the path of current? Does your book cover that?

He already has the system you're touting, and has problems with it, but you say that he can't have. If you thinks steel is such a wonderful conductor, you obviously have never had to deal with a melted shift cable when someone forgot to re install the ground and tried to crank the starter. It gets red hot and melts the jacket into a burned mess. I'm sure you have a technical response to cover that situation too.

When it comes to real world problems the books aren't always correct in real world applications. Problems such as poor welds, corroded welds, rust, aren't taken into the equation. Maybe you've never looked at GM frame with the body removed. The welds look like chicken scratch many times, and many times over years they actually fail at welded joints. Spot welds use very little area and are susceptible to hidden corrosion. You're assuming all these joints will carry the electric load needed to crank a hot engine.

While you're on the topic of heated copper not carrying the needed electric load, the starter pinned in between the exhaust, and engine block does build resistance the more it's heated. You know what isn't getting heated? The dedicated ground cable, it's likely around ambient air temperature.

As I said the OP can choose to deal with resolving his problem whichever way he chooses. With a dedicated ground he will be sure that the system has full volts and amps with only 2 connections. The cars and trucks I've used dedicated ground cable to wire starter motors or starter motor powered accessories on are still functioning decades later. He has the frame ground system, and it's failing.

I'll use real world experience Geoff, and you can discuss theory, have a nice day.

Sirrotica,
I am quoting from real world experience, started when I rebuilt my first engine in 1965.......& am still doing it today.
Anybody who doesn't read books to enhance their knowledge base is a fool.
I studied electirical engineering for a total of 6 yrears at a technical college.

Getting back to the frame issue.

Using the frame for grd return is a good idea, has lower resistance PROVIDED the cable connections at each end are clean & have good surface area contact.

Here is something else not mentioned. Starter cable is made of stranded copper wire. Many strands. There is an air gap between each strand. I couldn't find any battery cable for this comparison, so I used domestic power cable. It was stranded, 7 strands; I stripped the insulation off & measured the od with a micrometer: 0.102". Measured the OD of a strand, calculated the area & multiplied by 7. Combined area came to 0.073". A big drop from 102. The same principle applies to batt cable. you might strip the insulation & measure it at 5/16". But it would have the SAME resistrance as a piece of solid copper of a much smaller OD. Steel frame is solid, no air gaps, whsat you see is what you get....

Spoken like a true engineer, how did I predict that was your background? Simply by your attitude. I bet you love Lucas electrical systems too. The Brits do have a way to make wiring in an automobile as frustrating as it could possibly be.

There's a joke that goes along with Lucas electrical systems. Why do the British drink warm beer? Because they have Lucas refrigerators...............LOL

As I said previously you want to make something simple hard, and you ASSUME it's going to work out in real life just the way it's laid out in a classroom, or in a technical manual.

I went round and round with an engineer about an overheating 4-53 Detroit, did all his suggestions, and listened to his calculations. I told him my opinion was the transmission cooler in the radiator was overcoming the heat rejection ability of the radiator, causing the overheating of the engine coolant. I suggested an auxiliary transmission cooler. I got the same answer you gave me "NOPE". A year later after installing the largest custom made radiator that would physically fit in the machine, reversing the fan pitch, ruining the rings in the engine from continual overheating, and having to have the engine rebuilt under warranty, they tried an auxiliary transmission cooler, and it solved the overheating problem, the first thing I suggested to the engineer a year earlier. By this time the customer was disgusted, bought another machine that didn't overheat and the Gradall company lost their ass in wasted money because their engineer said on paper. "it can't overheat".

We have different weather in the US than you have, we have a lot of corrosion problems with wiring and electrical systems, the OP said that 20 some years ago the car worked with a frame ground, but now it doesn't. Your answer was maybe his engine is to tight, really that's your summation of his problem, and how he should solve it?

Believe me when I tell you that I tried your way in my own car, and until I ran a dedicated ground the engine would spin slowly when everything is heat soaked. It didn't work for me, and there have been numerous people on this board that have had the same problem when relocating a battery to the rear.

I did some due diligence about remote batteries, yes it required reading so you can retract your comment about reading.

Seems there are people split roughly 50/50 about using frames versus dedicated grounds. Some interesting facts that I found, that even though a frame/body ground will work without a dedicated ground, 2 drawbacks show up. The motor components have a reduced life with frame grounds, and there is electronic interference with onboard electronics. ECMs and stereo systems were among the most mentioned systems not getting along with frame grounds with remote batteries. While some people were able to get adequate function from a frame ground, the motors ran hotter, and gave up sooner than with a dedicated ground.

One thing you mentioned previously was tinning all the connection points. You intend to get under the car and tin each connection point where the cables attach to the frame, you must have way more time to screw with an electrical system than most people do. Would you be doing this to prove your frame grounds work. or just to save $50 on buying a ground cable?

Electric winch manufacturers used to ground their units through the winch cases, but due to the high amp draw stopped using a frame ground in favor of a dedicated ground cable. Warn was one of the manufactures that now supply's ground cables to reach the battery terminals, before they just supplied ground straps. An electric recovery winch also draws huge amounts of current, in case you're not familiar with them. The winches draw is likely equivalent to a heat soaked Pontiac starter. The winch draw is around 450 amps on average loaded heavily.

To sum it all up you can make all your tinned connections and screw with short ground straps connected to the frame, or spend $50 for some cable for a dedicated ground with 2 connections, and extend the starter motor life. You'll also be safeguarding any electronics that may not play well with frame ground connections. It's the OPs choice how he'd like to attack and solve his problem.

I suspect you'll have a laundry list tomorrow of why the frame ground is superior, engineers have a lot of pride and tenacity, but I've said my peace.

I'm going to get some sleep Geoff, it's 2:30 AM in Ohio.

"or spend $50 for some cable for a dedicated ground"

00 cable is $6.50 per foot.

Inflation!

:D

So around $60/$75 now.
(in a couple weeks probably double that)

:)

As far as shielding, I've never used a insulated type shield. I've used a factory style tin, or just made one out of a piece of tin with a 90 degree bend and secured it to the outer starter bolt, either work in my experience.

I would guess the insulation would hold heat in as well as shield it. With a tin shield the air can still carry away some heat as well as shield the motor from the exhaust radiant heat.

I haven't priced it in awhile, but you're correct it has nearly doubled.

I believe I used #2 when I ran mine, but the car was sold about 6 years ago, so I can't verify what size I used. You might want to look at used welding cables through Marketplace on a ground the insulation having some nicks is irrelevant. Sometimes people sell welding cable on there pretty reasonably. Inoperative stick welder would be another possibility to find some bargain leads.

I've also heard of people buying 20 ft HD jumper cables, and cutting the clamps off, might save some money there.

Geoff is adamant that steel is best, I guess 1 inch rebar would be a whole lot cheaper.................:D Tough to bend though.

I'm thinking that next set of jumper cables I buy should be solid steel wire rope, like a cable excavator uses, instead of copper wire.

Not all battery cables are created the same, and some can perform less than another even among the same gauge.

Age also effects stranded cable, it just won't last forever, and the longer the run, the shorter the life span.

Use SGT or SGX cable for batteries and you will avoid a lot of that.

Welding cable is easier to run, easier to bend, but it won't last as long as SGT or SGX cable. SGX cable has near the same flexibility as welding cable but will last longer.

There's a resistance difference too. In general, you can use one or two sizes smaller SGT/SGX cable as compared to welding cable. (Depending on brand and quality).

SGT/SGX is a standard, 'welding' cable needs to be EPDM to equal SGT/SGX (nearly).

I've made my own battery wires for like 20+ years, remember to use quality connectors, it makes a big difference.

I don't use the typical clamp-style battery connectors anymore, only use ring/eyelet ends on cables. You can buy marine clamp-style if you want, makes it easier to swap out the ends and not have to muck with the cables. Otherwise, just use batteries that have marine type posts or side posts.

When doing grounds to a frame, use a thread-sert or riv-nuts. They crush to the frame and make a solid contact the entire circumference. It helps seal out moisture too. Star washers suffer from not making a full/good contact.

.

I have an IMI hi-torque mini starter rated at 1.2kw that is 20 years old. An upgrade to a 2.0 kw seems wise.

OK, first of all thank you to everyone for giving sound advice, and probably everyone is at least partially correct.
Let's remember that this battery system was installed in 1997. That's 28 years ago for the math challenged among us. No doubt corrosion has set in and a cleaning renewal of all contact points (pos and ground)seems the first order of business. I also have a battery disconnect switch in the trunk (helps on a vehicle that is not driven everyday) but this is undoubtedly another source of resistance and power loss. I will clean this as well and if no improvement, try removing it from the circuit.
The pos and ground cables all look fairly clean, but again, more that a quarter century has passed. If no improvement, a metal heat shield will replace the asbestos blanket currently in place. Following that a new 2.0kw starter will replace the old 1.2kw IMI mini-starter.
And finally, if all the above do not correct the hot start problem, I will run a dedicated ground to the bellhousing.
Does this sound like a logical, problem directed course of action?
I took photos today but they have not yet uploaded from my phone.

I think you are wise to not assume the cause for your symptoms and even wiser to revisit the basics (clean all the connections).

The VAST majority of electrical failures are connection failures.

You spelled it out well - corrosion is difficult to prevent. Even a well-clamped connection can loosen up from corrosion and thermal cycling. Connecting to/between highly corrosive materials (steel, zinc, tin are examples) will be more likely to fail than clamped joints between copper, nickel, and noble metals.

The best approach to solving any problem is to define it. If it were me, I'd be measuring voltage drops along the circuit before spending money on new parts...

For example, measure the voltage across that disconnect switch while cranking the starter so you can make an informed decision.

Run the ground to the frame directly across from the run to the ENGINE. Or visa-versa. Leave the existing batt to frame in place, and at same connection point make the run to the front.

Paint on the bellhousing-block etc may be a drain point.

I think there's a combo of issues going on, age of parts/wires/etc. Inspect everything front to back/back to front. Wouldn't hurt too much to redo the whole thing.

Wirebarn.com runs sales all the time on wire at very reasonable prices.

The eyelets are what they are, copper/tin, at $6-$8 a pop, it's worth it for as long as it lasts. The materials are 85% of the cost.

$25 for a decent battery terminal crimper, should have one in your toolbox anyway.

https://www.amazon.com/IWISS-Termina...1zcF9hdGY&th=1

SGX 2awg is plenty for the run front to back with quality wire. 10 feet is less than $40.

https://www.wirebarn.com/2-AWG-SGX-S...ED-_p_610.html

Eyelet, good, thick adhesive shrink tubing and you are good.

Do it right, do it once. You can spend more $ and time by chopping away at a piece at a time, just bite the bullet and cut to the chase. Then you will KNOW it's right and not have to worry about it.

.

Riv-nut tool kit:

https://www.amazon.com/HARDELL-Metri...0&sr=8-10&th=1


.

Sirrotica,
I am not an engineer & never claimed to be one.....
Because a person has an intimate understanding of how something works....does not mean they are an engineer. It just means they understand the problems & the fixes...

I'm well aware of what an engineer is, and how they interact with people that don't have a degree. Very dismissive of what anyone says that doesn't agree with their analysis of a problem.

The OP has made his decision, so he took the advisements given, and deduced what fits his situation. No one can ask any more than that...........hope the facts stated, help him fix his situation long term.

HWYSTR455, I don't understand this:
Run the ground to the frame directly across from the run to the ENGINE. Or visa-versa. Leave the existing batt to frame in place, and at same connection point make the run to the front.

I was suggesting to double up on the ground. Batt is trunk is grounded to frame back there, correct? Connect a dedicated ground wire to the same point in the trunk and run it forward to another ground point on the frame close to the engine. Then from that point run it to the engine block.

But, if you're going to go over the entire circuit, you can try using riv-nuts at those two points first, and just replace the cables. That would save the money of the ground cable run from front to back.


.

Here is a pic of my batt-frame-block ground point. It has a riv-nut in the frame.

My batt is in the front, but the principle for the circuit for a batt in trunk is the same.



.

I have a high amp ALT, so at the block junction I run a ground to the case of the ALT as well.



.

The factory battery-to-frame ground is there to ground components that are connected to the frame. Such as the horn button via the steering box.
If you are going to use the frame for the grd return for a trunk mounted battery, I would bolt the cable to the engine mount. It keeps the cable length short & direct.

Yup, I use one of the unused engine mount holes in the block.



.

I am blaming my comments in post #41 on a seniors moment.....
The info in post #41 works for the battery in the engine bay.

Of course, this thread is about a trunk mounted battery...

With a trunk mounted battery, bolt the grd cable to one of the bellhousing bolts, lower bolt to keep cable as short as possible. Leave a small loop in the cable to allow for movement/vibration.

I'm on board with using the bell housing ONLY if you make sure the contact(s) are not compromised by paint.

An engine mount bolt/bolt (block side) hole has less chance of being compromised in that way.



.

A word about the role of a battery.. it also provides electrical noise filtering in the electrical system, but in order to do that, the cabling between the battery and the system has to be low impedance and low inductance, i.e. short and good cable. On modern systems with various sensors, the sensor grounds are right at the engine metal with short connections from the engine metal to the battery. This eliminates ground loops, i.e. where ground points have different voltages compared to the battery negative. Ideally, there should be zero voltage difference between the battery negative and any other ground.

A short story... when I worked at Motorola Charging Systems, we provided systems to Volkswagen of America. and had to meet charging specs for various models. Some had batteries under the hood, some under the rear seat, and some in the back of the vehicle. The voltage regulation was slightly different due to noise present at the regulator due to cabling differences. We proposed that a standard cable setup was to be used for testing to provide consistent results.

George

Good advice and understand. Quality cables are a must.

My engine ground to frame is @ 12", and my frame to batt is about the same.

My ALT ground is about 8", which connects to the same point on the engine as the frame ground.

I have a ground that goes from the frame right next to the body mount to the body, both with riv-nuts.

I have one ground from the back of engine to the firewall with a riv-nut.

One more ground goes from the frame to the junction of the inner & outer wheel housing, all riv-nuts.

Also have a core support to frame by the batt, both w riv-nuts. At the core support junction where the ground meets the core, I ran a wire over to the fender. Overkill, but fine by me.

Basically, the entire left frame rail is a ground (on the GTO). The body has those 3 mentioned ground points on the frame. Frame has been blaster and powder coated, another reason for the riv-nuts.

For the passenger compartment, the lower dash rail is the ground for everything in the dash, and from the driver's side lower dash rail mount, it's inches from the body ground-to-frame point.

All but one frame grounds are 6AWG, the ALT-block-frame-batt run is 2AWG (maybe 4AWG, would have to actually check, but pretty sure it's 2AWG).

On the bird, being a unibody, I will run a dedicated ground the length of the car on the driver's side, with 4 mount points along the way using riv-nuts. Will use the dual-cable batt terminals.

.

Thread update:
The starter problems in the red modified 70 Judge convertible were put on hold due to yet another set of broken pushrods in the stock Orbit Orange RAIV 70 Judge vert, ultimately traced to incorrect Comp Cams roller tip rockers that were breaking the upper balls of the pushrods. Thankfully that problem has been fully sorted and only cost 4 sets of pushrods, a new cam and lifters, new springs and pulling the motor and heads for machining. The heads were assembled by a reputable machine shop and I never imagined they could install the wrong parts.
Anyway, I cleaned all contacts for the pos and neg battery cables. I installed a 2/0 cable from the neg battery connection at the rear frame to one of the starter bolts. MINIMAL improvement.

Perhaps I should describe the entire circuit in more detail:
The battery negative terminal goes to a cut off switch in the trunk, and from there to the frame. There is now a 2/0 cable running from that frame point to the inner starter bolt. A 2 gauge ground runs from the outer starter bolt to the frame.
The pos battery terminal runs to a trunk mounted solenoid (activated by the same circuit as stock). From the solenoid a 2/0 cable runs to the Hi-torque mini starter (rated at 1.4). There is an asbestos heat shield in place (soon to be replaced by a tin shield).
Again, when cold this system spins the engine like a banshee. When warm it turns over 2 or 3 times slowly and then catches.
What would be the next logical step?

Here are some photos to better explain above. The third photo shows the cut off switch and the black box hanging off the battery box is the remote solenoid. The plastic box is a power connection for the stereo sub-woofer.
The last photo shows the ground to frame connection (since removed, wire brushed to extreme shininess and put back together with new dedicated 2/0 cable ground also attached.

Instead of just guessing at the problem why not troubleshoot it?

Get a voltmeter. Analog (not digital) is best for this kind of test because a digital meter will be jumping around a lot. Put the meter on the lowest DC volts scale it has. You may have to substitute a long piece of wire (16 gauge is plenty big enough) for one of the leads for some of the measurements. Invite 2 friends over and get a cold 6 pack or two. Friend 1 to activate the starter. Friend 2 holds the test leads in place. You can read and record the measurements and get more beer.

1. Turn on the battery cut off switch.

2. Place the positive meter lead on the battery + post.
3. Place the negative meter lead on the positive cable at the battery.
4. Engage the starter and record the voltage.

5. Place the positive meter lead on the positive cable at the battery.
6. Place the negative meter lead on the cable at the hot side of the battery cut off switch.
7. Engage the starter and record the voltage.

8. Place the positive meter lead on the cable at the hot side of the battery cut off switch.
9. Place the negative meter lead on the stud of the hot side of the battery cut off switch.
10. Engage the starter and record the voltage.

11. Place the positive meter lead on the stud of the hot side of the battery cut off switch.
12. Place the negative meter lead on the stud of the cold side of the battery cut off switch.
13. Engage the starter and record the voltage.

..,. keep going like this through each component/connection all the way to the starter motor. You'll need to use that long piece of wire as a meter lead when testing the battery cables from the trunk to the engine compartment.

Then work your way in the ground circuit from the starter motor case back to the battery's negative post.

Look for a high voltage at any one measurement. 1/4 volt is too much if you have more that one or two like that. Fix it and try again.

Then test from the power stud on the starter to the starter's case. This will show how much voltage the starter is actually getting.

The last measurement should be between the battery's posts to see how much it is actually being pulled down while starting.