Classic Pontiac daily driver: How would YOU do it?
 

Everyone needs a daily driver. But with the price of new vehicles, has anyone considered making a classic a daily driver? How would you build it? What drivetrain? What kind of interior elements? Safety features? Elements of performance and reliability would have to come into play. I think of Steve Barcak, who drove the wheels off his GTO making numerous long distance hauls.

At the end of the day, these cars are just possessions, and should be enjoyed often!

If it was me, I would do a 2nd gen Firebird. They are my fave. They handle nicely, and the leg room was always outstanding. They were always my favorite blend of styling, handling, performance, and comfort. T-tops would be a plus, but also pose a security liability. Here in Mesa, AZ you can get a collector car emissions exemption, but a 1967+ daily driver would require smogging.

Vehicle:

• So... late 70's Firebird.

Drivetrain:

• Mild engine, like a Pontiac 350, or maybe a SBC.
• TH350 trans. Rear gears no steeper than 3.08's in a 10 bolt.
• Cam that would accommodate stock valvetrain components for reliability and longevity. I'm thinking of a Summit 2800 or other equivalent for a Poncho motor.
• Induction would be either a Qjet, or aftermarket EFI. But I would make the EFI fuel system scaleable so I could switch back to carb with little hassle.
• Ignition: HEI, or points distributor with electronic conversion. Or if going with EFI, control timing with locked out phaseable distributor.
• 5.3 LS with 4L60E might be nice, but I don't feel so adventurous unless the car already had it done.

Interior:

• Stock 70's bird interior is nice. No need for weird custom stuff, but I wouldn't be averse to aftermarket buckets with better adjustability - as long as it didn't mess with a stockish vibe.
• Audio is limited to single DIN in a 2nd gen, even tho I love touchscreen displays. So this would require compromise.
• Digital electric gauges are cool. I would enjoy these. I don't want any mechanical gauges. I really like the Intellitronix kit I put in my 67 Firebird.

Safety:

• 3 point seatbelts would be a must. Later 2nd gens were standard with 3 point belts. If it didn't have it, I would make it happen.
• AC is a must. Aftermarket or a stock setup wouldn't matter. I DO like the cleaner setup with a Sanden compressor and orifice tube system.

With a daily driver, how far would you go with paint and body?

Let me know what you think, have fun with it!:D

Interesting thought. In general restoring my 77 Trans Am has made me realize I’ve been selling my new cars too quickly.

My 77 is daily driver capable with its LS3, modern stereo system and pretty much every mechanical part replaced at this point. My insurance doesn’t technically allow me to drive it more than 2x/week to work but they have no way to track that. Mine is a hardtop which I’d recommend if you were daily driving it.

That being said I’m too paranoid to leave it out in a public parking lot. My work has a secured parking garage so I’m ok driving it to work but not many other places where I have to leave it.

I’d make sure you also have good disc brakes all around. The safety features obviously aren’t as good as modern cars so that’s always the risk you take.

Personally I’d buy a decent modern car and just maintain it well for a long time instead of going with a classic as a daily driver though.

If it came with a Pontiac engine under the hood it needs to keep the engine or its not really a Pontiac.

Well I love my Chevy Trans Am then. 430 dependable, smog legal horsepower instead of an 180hp L78 400 is such a better experience. It’s a ton of fun to drive now.

What if its got a ford 9 inch? Is it just a bit Ford curious at that point? :)


Jokes aside it all comes down to what you are comfortable with. How much do you drive? How long are your average commutes? I currently live in deer country. I would not personally be comfortable driving anything daily around here that didn't at minimum have 3 point shoulder harnesses. Even then, no airbag concerns me. I don't like driving my Firebird at night here for that reason.

Considering retrofitting airbags would be a huge project, I think for me to daily a classic where I currently live, it would need 3 point belts (which a 70s T/A would have) and dramatically upgraded over stock brakes, which is going to mean 17" or bigger wheels. I just don't want to lose all my teeth because of a stupid deer.

The drivetrain stuff, that's all semantics for the most part. My DD Ram gets like 17-19 mpg. A decently sorted out muscle car with OD would be in that neighborhood. I don't get as hard up about engines swaps as others do, so I could take it or leave it. I don't feel the average junkyard 5.3 swap would be any more reliable than a decent vintage pontiac engine. Now if you were talking about an LS crate motor and trans? Different story.

I would also personally spend a ton of effort on sound deadening. I don't mind the normal classic car rattles on joyrides but on a daily, I would want to be able to listen to football podcasts and talk on Bluetooth calls without yelling. AC obviously a must. Modern replacement wiper motor, because 90% of the classic ones are weak as hell. Stock style enclosed filter housing so it doesn't smell like gas.

Underrated aspect for me, and this would be model specific. I HATE, all capitals HATE, putting gas in the Firebird. It has a tiny short filler neck to the tank and you have to pump it slow or it spits back out at you. So I would choose a model that didn't have that flaw if I was going to be driving it every day.

Not trying to be dismissive, but I believe you may be overthinking this. Grab a 78-79 WS6, put your favorite flavor of overdrive transmission in it, and enjoy.

This is for fun discussion. But it was something that came up recently.

I drive a 20 year old GMC with a 5.3 and 205k miles. My truck is getting to the point where things going wrong start to stack up. Wife and I were talking about cars, and I mentioned how I sometimes wouldn't mind a daily driver car. From 1999 to 2007, I drove my 73 Formula 400 for 63k+ miles - It was my road beast. Was thinking back to "what if...?":D

Current plans with my 67 FB are to make it more cruiser friendly, and drive it much more.

:thumbup:

:eek: For sure. But no deer to worry about here, just tumbleweeds...:D

Modern cars definitely do this better. Would be a win.

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HaHa! Same for my 67!

Aftermarket suspension upgrades, & disc brakes, brighter dash and headlights and retain as much OEM power train as possible including HEI . Use a mechanical fuel pump with return line and an electric pusher to motor through episodes of vapor lock.

I'm already doing it.

My '78 Catalina has been in daily driver rotation since I bought it 11 years ago, just passed 50K miles on the stock 400. The car is currently almost completely stock except for the 18" US Mags Bandit wheels and rear disc brakes from a late Caprice cop car. Factory A/C still works and is still on R-12, and a Retrosound stereo fits the factory radio bezel for my Bluetooth needs. I am working on a coilover conversion right now and saving up for a 4L80E and a 455 build. Only major issue is I badly need a repaint.

If you're curious, the other two cars in the stable are a 1968 Eldorado (the queen) and a 1999 C5 (the beater) which both need a little work. The Eldo is a bit more temperamental than the other two, but not grotesquely so. The Catalina is the best all-rounder, though.

An LS powered ride already done by someone else would be nice!

Security system with ignition disable would have to be a must. My 67 is done up with a reasonable system.
:)

Ive been daily driving my 70 RAIII formula for 20-something years.

It's all stock. Never found a need for suspension upgrades or brake upgrades. I find these old cars handle and stop just fine. They were good for everyone 60 years ago and good enough for me now. Very simple to work on, very reliable, comfortable. Points and a mechanical pump really doesn't leave much to go wrong. Gets 17 mpg with no overdrive so it's respectable and better than most SUV's. I dont need or worry about safety features. I always felt that stuff got pushed way too much anyway.
My son grew up in the back seat with his child seat from the day he was born. Its my wife's favorite to drive when she doesn't want to drive the 69 Z.

In the end a 70 RA formula still doesn't bring a ton of money and is the least valuable classic I have so cost with this one isnt much of a factor.

If I ever decided to retire it I would still replace it with another classic to drive. I dont own a new car and have no interest in anything the oem's have to offer.

Just something else I'll add. While I do like overdrive transmissions and do use them in a few classics here, I'm not as huge of a fan as I used to be of changing to a modern engine, or efi or other modern updates for that matter. The car really starts to lose its character and quite frankly I don't find it necessary even for a daily. These old engines with carbs and points are dead nuts reliable when built right and can be very efficient when tuned properly.
They make excellent dailys as is.

One thing to keep in mind is 'performance' is not just about power, it's also about efficiency. You can have a 'performance' build which is not based on making the most power and focus on efficiency. And that's not just for power, it's for all aspects of a car, weight, drag, ergo functionality, etc.

Displacement does impact consumption though. But the difference between a 350 and 400 is nominal. It makes sense to do a 400 over a 350, as long as you keep it 'moderate'.

OD is key, especially if you go smaller displacement. With less TQ, you need more gear (TQ manipulation), and, more gears to keep it efficient and economical. Look at newer cars, smaller displacements and 6, 8, even 10 gears. Good reason for that.

The more time you spend in a car, the more important creature comforts are. If you are going 2nd gen, I would have to say new front buckets are very important, and the originals aren't going to cut it. Enhanced sound deadening and thermal control is important too. Even things like driver position and ease of reaching/operating controls is important.

For suspension and brakes, same principles. Although the original stuff may be 'adequate', they are not very efficient. Tech has come a long way. 'Performance' in this area doesn't have to mean corner-carving or drag, it can be 'balance'. Power 4-way discs provide a great balance, there's less driver fatigue and safer driving. Drums can drag, scrubbing mpg/wasting power. A free-articulating suspension with moderate sized modern tires provide less roll resistance and better performance/economy.

There is enough info and comparisons on the forum where you pick & choose to fit your needs. Think it through, draw it out, and engineer the crap out of it before you start.

As for emissions, most states only require emissions items that were born to the car to be present, so it's not like you have to add anything or make any special changes.


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As an example, the LeMans I had was like 4200lbs, 461 stroker e-head solid roller, OD trans and 3.73 gears. I daily drove that and did many long trips in it. Best mpg numbers were in the 21-23mpg range.

I had a 67 Dodge Coronet convertible with a 318, was like a 275hp build, 3.23 gears, and it would get best in the 30-32mpg range.

Friend had a 74 Ventura, 350 with a 4bbl swap, 3.23 gears, and he would get best in the mid-30s mpg.

It can be done with older cars, contrary to popular belief.



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for me, late 70's, early 80's grand prix. 400 with FI and overdrive. Has decent brakes, ok interior, decent looks, three point belts. Light weight, good power, need the overdrive to stay out of the way of the crossovers doing 85 in the slow lane. Dont touch the paint, maybe clear coat to slow the rust. No aftermarket wheels, nothing blingy, replace the weatherstriping. Hidden stereo or bluetooth, add nothing to draw attention. Pretty much could park it and not worry too much just about anywhere. I defy you to park a 2nd gen firebird unattended just about anywhere and not drive yourself insane worrying about if it will still be there when you come back.

This is my biggest concern. I guy that is at repo can make your car disappear in seconds regardless of security system.

My '87 pickup was a daily for 30 years and 200,000 miles.

I drove it when it was new until about 1991, in Michigan and Arizona.

Sold it to my in-laws who had it until 2009. I got it back when my F-i-L passed away.

It was pretty beat cosmetically, so I did a quick freshen up in the driveway and proceeded to drive it here in Michigan until I retired it in 2016.

https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/...d.php?t=342926

Fuel injected V6, manual overdrive trans, 3.73 gear with posi. Manual locks and windows, A/C, p/s and power disc/drum brakes.

Obviously not a Pontiac, but I comment to say that with a proven driveline and a few basic creature comforts it should be no problem. This was basically an '86 Monte Carlo wrapped in vintage truck sheetmetal.

It got lots of attention. I couldn't put gas in it without someone coming over to talk about it.

K

I live in the inland northwest where we get enough winter that I would not really consider a rear-wheel drive vehicle as a year-round daily driver. What I would do is build a stock Pontiac 400 with a quadrajet, stock intake, functional heat riser, exhaust manifolds, and put it in a 67-72 Chevy 4x4. I don't drive enough on the interstate to even really need an overdrive, so a TH350 or TH400 would be sufficient. Maybe trigger a box with points or run an HEI for reliability reasons.

I picked up an 81 Trubo 301 apart project car. Put a mild 6X-4 400 in it and a TH350 with 3.08s my kids both used as a daily driver to high school.

I think everyone here is familiar with my build by now and I drive it almost everyday. In fact my truck is having the front end rebuilt right now so it’s my only car besides my wife’s.

Sorry, I had fix that sentence:

A guy that is good at repo can make your car disappear in seconds regardless of security system.

How would insurance work? Last I knew, our classics were treated like throwaway trash by the insurance companies. Do they do a comp/collision policy that comes close to market value?

It depends. My normal insurance company insures stated value classics with no miles restrictions as long as you have a normal car insured through them. I think they underwrite through Hagerty but don’t quote me on that.

Others have said anyone who isn’t a specific classic car insurer will try to weasel out if and when you need a claim. Idk. I’ll deal with that when I get there. I have an actual insurance agent rather than just a faceless internet policy.

On the downside they wouldn’t do stated value on my wagon because it’s a beater and doesn’t look “restored”

Hagerty has a default mileage when you get your quote. You can tell them your usage and increase or decrease the mileage, of course this affects premium. I wouldn’t tell them you’re gonna drive it everyday all day as your only transportation which I don’t think you’re gonna do anyway.

You can get normal driving policies on the car, but it typically won't be a stated or agreed value.

If you have a high dollar car, or a big money restomod type deal that you are dailying, this is probably an issue.

If you've got something like a low trim tempest that hasn't had 10's of thousands of dollars sunk into it, probably not an issue.

I could drive my Firebird daily if I wanted to. It's nice enough and reliable enough to do that. But I'd have to change the insurance and if something happened, I'd be out quite a bit of money. So I don't.

I had a fender-bender in the firebird one time, was a regular Allstate policy. Think they offered me $650 for it and considered it totaled since the parts weren't available from a dealer.

I contested it, showed receipts, and they sent a classic car appraiser out. This was late 80s, and they revalued it at like $18,500. I was offered the option to buy it back, which would be normal scrap fee of $500, and I accepted.

So they cut me a check for about $18k, minus a couple fees and deductible. Of course I fixed it, think I paid like $5k, parts, body work, and paint. I did a color change at that time too.

You can still do that even today, contest, if you have a reputable insurance company. I think I was paying in the $85-$120 every 6 mo as a premium at that time. (EDIT: Liability only)


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We have a guy at work who drives his Yenko Camero to work on sunny days. Its a real one.

Lame. Do you know how easy it is to drop a set of lower cc heads on a 400 with a few other tricks and get 400 reliable horsepower ? Better yet, put a 4" or 4.25 crank in the engine .
You simply FIX the problem PMD had to have shoved down their throats. Make it right.
You are not living the Pontiac experience. When you turn the key your car does not sound like a Pontiac and drive like a Pontiac.
Pontiacs have a certain sound to them and people who know, know.

I drag race the car. Broke every GM rear end I put in her. Even broke some 9" gears and billet axles.
All the breaking stopped when I went to 40 spine axles and big bearing Pro gears.

This right here. The last and final real Pontiac. Improve it and you have a winner.

There’s no way that combo would pass smog in my 1977 Trans Am in CA. The E-Rod LS3 I have has a CARB certification. I did my best to get my Pontiac 400 up and running again but it wasn’t worth it. Any other replacement engine I’d have gone with would’ve been a big risk while the LS3 was guaranteed to pass smog. That’s why I took this path. Else I’d have happily gone with a monster 461 Pontiac stroker.

For a daily driver, I totally get the LS. My GM trucks with 5.3's have turned 300k and 200k, with little repair other than alternator, PS pump, etc., and still run nice. I've never been able to achieve that with a Pontiac motor. Most every 400 powered FB/Tran Am I ever owned had bearing issues right at 100k.

I can't imagine needing daily driver power enough to break 10 or 12 bolts. That sounds more like a brutal toy. But individual preferences vary widely, and it's all good.

Concerning smog: For this purpose I think aftermarket EFI with timing control is ideal. Tweaking AFR on a handheld could fix the fails, and the same goes with timing control. I love the idea of crude simple tech for reliability, but there is something to be said about technology that can make it easier to fit within the constraints of the world around us.

I can see where smog would have people thinking modern fuel control.

When I bought my formula in California, it had to be smogged before the sale. It passed easily. It was all stock back then too. All the smog station did was unplug the vacuum advance and it passed. If I remember right it had something to do with hydrocarbon levels. They even put a sticker on the inner fender that the vacuum advance must remain unplugged. Of course as soon as I pulled out of the lot I quickly plugged it back in lol.

It's not that difficult to get these old cars to pass smog, if it's stock like my bird. But I've always made sure I lived in areas that dont smog anyway. Which is why I'm in Prescott and not Phoenix. Yavapai doesn't smog up here.

Just out of curiosity, why would it fail? I’m assuming it had 6X-8 heads from the factory, those combined with a stroker crank play nice together. Is it just cuz of the tailpipe sniffer?

You did not try hard enough. All that effort got you was turning your car into, well , NOT a Pontiac.
Its all about the engine, the engine IS the car.
I live in CA, but do not live in a area where you have to smog your car every 2 years. Just get it to pass smog when you but it and thats it.
I am a total die hard on this. This is a PONTIAC site and I am sure there are ways to get a PMD engine with 350 ot better HP to pass smog. Might not be easy but it would be worth all the effort.
Politically, the way things are going maybe we can get something done about this stuff. People are sick of being over controlled.
In CA what is it, 72 and earlier you can do whatever you want ? Maybe that will change.