2004r Upgrades/Questions
 

So I found a 2004r out of a 86 cutlass for decent price ($250) to possibly put behind my Pontiac 400 in my lemans.

Doing some research it sounds like the GN or Monte SS ones are the best, but can this “plain jane” 86 cutlass one be upgraded to be just as strong?

I would want the trans to be gone through regardless so not worried too much as long as the trans itself is a good rebuildable core/it’s possible to get it close to a GN unit.

This has been a controversial mod for years, there are plenty of folks who say that a 200 can’t be built strong enough with the same amount of people saying that it can with a ton of money. There’s also the group that says to run a 700R4 since that’s stronger and another group who says to run a 4L80E, in other words with enough money any of these are a good choice. I go for the 2004R because it’s a BOP bell pattern almost the same exact length as the ST300 requiring no driveshaft mods. Have someone competent go through the trans using quality parts and you’ll be fine unless you’re over 500 hp with a lot of track time. You’ll need to decide if you want a lock up converter or not and wire accordingly, finally you’ll need to figure out your TV cable situation, again plenty of info here and on the internet. Read up on all the choices I mentioned before spending a penny , dollar for dollar none of these are cheap but they’re also possibly the best modification you can do to your ride to get more miles/smiles.

Reach out to Extreme Automatics and CK Performance. Both are well regarded in the GN world.

Yeah overall for what I’m doing (no track days) I figured it would be fine, mostly just curious if I should wait and find a better Monte SS or GN trans, or if the internals of this cutlass one can be somewhat upgraded to be similar

Monte SS cars are/were easily found in neglected shape. Nearly all GNs were cared for.
Cutlass probably all crushed. I got no idea of the internals diference.

Bell adapter ought be like$60.

I can highly recommend the Bowtie Overdrives TV and Throttle Cable SYSTEMS.

https://www.bowtieoverdrives.com/



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Being a 50 year veteran in the transmission world, I like the 700 a bit better. You can make a 200-4R strong, but it requires a lot of $.
The 200-4R will be fine with minor upgrades (Trans-Go kit, pump veins/rings etc and a better servo) for normal use and it bolts right up.
Internal parts are pretty much the same.
I also recommend Bowtie Overdrives for the cable systems.

Do not use Extreme Automatics. I had them build mine because they are somewhat local. It started with them selling me the wrong converter for the transmission that they built me, and not being willing to exchange me for the correct one. (It sat for 2 years while I finished the car. I told them that right up front, and they promised they would work with me if there were any problems.) After an extra 2K in converter, a refresh, and parts and pulling the trans 3 times I ended up fixing mine myself with some help from CK. Definitely use CK or Bowtie.

My buddy in act builds these for GNs all day long and they are about bullet proof when he’s done if you want his number I can send it to you he’s got them running in the 9s for street cars reliably.

His name is Brian Bissonette can probably look him up as well

Thanks guys - and I’m guessing it’s safe to say that rebuilding a 200-4r is much more expensive than your typical turbo 400 build?

It depends on your end use. You can put thousands into either rebuild. I wanted an OD trans so I went with a TH2004R Stage 2 that was built by Extreme Automatics to be for street/strip use behind a 461 stroker engine. I didn't have a core so they supplied one. I supplied the converter. Now running 11.56 in a 68 Firebird. This past spring I had a reverse manual valve body installed by a local shop. I'm having a lot of fun with it. I will say both myself and the shop that installed the manual valve body had a positive experience dealing with EA. Good luck with your project!

I've had a Bow Tie Overdrives 200-4R in my 1967 600 hp GTO since about 2002. It came out of my son's 11 second 1987 Turbo Regal so it was used when I installed it. Built well they are great.

Chris at CK won't touch a 200 anymore, and I bought the baddest BTO 200 at the time and it never worked right. They exchanged it twice and the 3rd time they sent it back I sold it.

I don't think JakeShoe does 200s anymore either. Both at one time or another said good cores are hard to come by, and they had too many callbacks.

Pretty sure both of them still sell the proprietary parts they designed/developed, they just won't install them.

Don't even bother mentioning Art Carr.

200s stock are rated around 275-300 ftlbs, HP means nothing to a transmission. TH400 is rated at 450-500 ftlbs. SO basically, the numerical value is what GM trans' are rated for. The closer you get to the peak of a rating, the shorter the life of the trans.

Only way to make them stronger is with aftermarket parts, which gets expensive. By the time you get one worked out it will still just be a 200. And no one that I've heard of makes an aftermarket 200 case. With the money you spend you can buy 3 4L80Es.

"All the turbo guys are running them w X boost and into the 9s or deeper, and they live". Farce. most go thru their' trans' every year.

Now I know some legitimately run good times and having them last, but those are anomalies. Even the turbo guys now are moving over to 4L80Es.

Look how many on this board run 4L80Es and look how many complain compared to the ones with 200s. That is all you need to know. Or even just google 'th200-4r broke'.

It's your bbq, do what you want, but the odds are against you. Same with 700s.

Why not call CK or Jake and ask? I don't think they even recommend them anymore.


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I built one for my 69 Camaro about 15 years ago. very mild small block chevy it has worked fine. One problem is you cannot buy the performance governors anymore. Without them it will shift to soon. I have seen online guys modifying them by grinding the weights. You have to drop the pan to remove the governor on a 2004r. I decided to go with a 4L80 on my current build.

Thanks guys didn’t know about the governors being obsolete - think I may just stay TH400 or if I really want a overdrive spend the money on a proper trans.

What's wrong with Art Carr 200 4r? I have one behind my 800hp 535 and it works perfect. It wasn't cheap though. I think around 5500 with 9" converter.

I don't have any experience with a 200 but have been researching the 700r vs gear vendors 400 bolt on.

There is a guy in trashcona doing reasonable built 700rz apparently.

Good luck with her project.

The real Art Carr sold the biz in like the 90s, and went to CPT:

https://cpttransmission.com/

The original shop has pretty much been a revolving door of people and output has been hit or miss at best.

The fact remains, no one makes an aftermarket 200 case, and the good cores are pretty dried up. When internal parts let go, most times they damage the case, and at that point it's done. And good 'strong case' cores are stupid money, IF you can find them.

The 4L80/85E is based of the TH400, is much stronger, and much less expensive, as well as readily available. And the driving experience is light years ahead of the non-E units.

And you can apply that statement to a GV unit too.

Beat to death topic.

Not saying that a 200 CAN'T work/live, it's just more expensive and you get less of an acceptable driving experience.

Many people that have them live generally are not beating them or are exaggerating true power numbers. And not trying to be offensive.



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Agreed that Art sold the business and others have been running it. I dealt with Juan who seems very knowledgeable and so far so good. Surprisingly he nailed the converter stall of 3200 on the first attempt too. I'm still not sure if I like the 2.74 first gear. With all the pontiac torque plus that ratio it's a handful.

I know some guys will only use cores form a Monte SS or GN.

Steve C has one behind his 505!

I picked up a 2004R stage 2 non-lock-up with 9.5" 2500 stall from Extreme Automatics in 2020. Behind an approx. 600 hp tq (at crank) 455 in a Trans Am. Chose it over the 700 over becuase I liked the gearing better (for me). Bolted right in and the Holley TV cable they supplied worked with the excellent instructions. Not a single problem for me. Been flawless and a ton of fun. Not tracked but lots of fun street stuff. Extreme Auto gave great advice. And have parts too, if you build up your own (they did at the time). There are several good places, but this worked for me. For what it is worth.

Forgot to mention. The Extreme Automatics uses a GN styled valve body they manufacture. It can be bought but I believe they need your valve body and related parts in exchange as well.

A tidbit for conversation, not necessarily a recommendation here.....

I personally found the cam choice had a factor in the converter used.

At first I used a lock up converter from the source I bought my 200-4R transmission from, but I didn't like it.
At the time it. was a 650 hp combo with peak power at around 6000 rpm, and peak torque at 4900 rpm.
It was a solid roller with 255 degrees intake duration at .050".

With that cam the engine with the lock up converter gave a feeling from what I read is commonly called a chuggle. This chuggle or slight bucking that I felt in OD was from the converter locked at slower engine speeds driving around town. Sort of similar to a manual transmission lugging in 4th gear at a slow speed.

Soon after I changed to a non-lock up converter. Under a steady state cruise speed on the open highway this converter has about a 200 rpm slippage, very acceptable in my opinion.
With my 27.7" diameter rear tire and 3.73 gears it is about 2300 rpm at 70 mph.

I know other have no issues with a lock up converter and a 'big' cam, but again I did not like it.


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Have had an Extreme Automatics 200r4 in my 71 GTO since 2009, no issues whatsoever. Solid built trans you can beat to death.

AGREED

I've got a 2004R behind the big valve 400 in my Lemans. The extra gear is nice and low gear is lower than the 350/400. It came out of a Caprice wagon, similar year.

Bolts right up to the Pontiac block no adaptor required. Same length as the T350 and same shaft so that was easy on my car.

I had it rebuilt with a shift kit. Biggest challenge was getting the governor setup correctly for shifting at the correct rpms wide open. Had to drop the pan several times to grind the gov weights.

What I have seen it is fine for 400hp.