Electric fuel pump
 

I am looking for your ideas for an electric fuel pump. The car is a totally stock 389 1962 Bonneville. I don't need a racing fuel pump. I want to get rid of the mechanical pump. It makes too much pressure. Besides the car is parked a week or 2 without being started and requires a lot of cranking to get fuel to carb. I've had electric pumps in the past and they have been very noisy. Does anyone sell a universal in tank pump for a carbureted engine? Thanks for your time.

I'm not sure anybody makes what you're looking for. I get the feeling you don't want to spend much $$, but maybe I'm wrong.

If you go with an external electric pump, it's gonna be a bit noisy. Even if you mount it on rubber iso-mounts or otherwise isolate it. It's just the nature of the design of that style pump. the upside is the pump can be had for as cheap as $100.

If you want in-tank, that's a bit more of a job and expensive. But it won't be nearly as noisy. The kind I'm thinking of is likely over $500 for the kit.

Pick your poison.

Anyone install an electric pump from a late 1970's or early 1980's car that was mounted in the tank? A 1978 305 Chevy Monza had a carb and an in tank pump as part of the sending unit. I was thinking I could shorten the present fuel pickup tube and install the pump and screen in it's place

If on a budget, EFI tank and basic 255 Walbro or DW300 and you won't hear much over the exhaust.

https://www.tanksinc.com/index.cfm/p...cat/cat128.htm

Here is a conversion kit. You will need a fuel pressure regulator also.
https://www.tanksinc.com/index.cfm/p...prod/prd84.htm

As posted you have several in tank options. Tanks inc sells a universal in tank setup, Holley/Aeromotive has one. Shop around and pick your price point. They can be adapted to your tank. I didnt look but tanks likely doesn't offer a baffled efi style tank for a Bonneville anyway.

Pump in the tank is definitely the way to go. For what you're doing a little 190 lph would get it done but most just use a 255.

Sadly, no one makes a tank for that body that is ready for a 6-bolt pump assembly, and you would have to have a flange welded in. Since the pump assembly is higher than the OE lines, you would most likely need a recessed flange. Places make them, but it's more extensive work.

Once you convert to an in-tank pump module, you lose the float assembly, so you would also have to have a 5-bolt flange welded in.

Most radiator shops can do gas tank work, but most won't weld/braze on a tank that has had gas in it, unless it's been 'cleaned'. Thankfully, a regular replacement tank is available for your body. If you're going to go thru the cost of conversion, a new tank makes sense.

Pump assemblies, that 'trough' 'baffle' is not effective at all, and you could suffer from fuel starvation. Might not be as big an issue with a carb, but it you ever did want to go to a tbi type EFI, it's near worthless. The ones that have a 'bucket' work better, like these:

https://www.efihardware.com/products...ord-ba-fpv-mra

Those are 8-bolt, so when you shop for a flange, keep that in mind, it would be like these:

https://www.rickstanks.com/product/pn-26002

Nice thing about the 8-bolt flange is you can use OE type replacement pump modules.

Add that all up and you'd be better off going to a custom tank, like one from Rock Valley, Rick's, or similar.

You WANT a regulator, and it would be best to go to a bypass type. Which means you would have to run a return line. Since the type of pumps you would need to use generally move a lot of return fuel in a carb app, the line should be 1/2", and only maybe would a 3/8" line work. So no using the original vapor lines for a return.

An external pump is the least expensive route, and there are ones that are quiet. But, it's best to use a bypass regulator with those as well, and it would be best to 1/2" lines for feed & return.

A sump would be best in that case, which isn't expensive, but the same install notes above apply. You can try it without the sump to start, see how it works, and go from there.

External pump suggestions would be the geroator type since they tend to be the quietest. The ones that are based off in tank pumps have a higher failure rate when used as an external, and the 'traditional' external pumps have become kind of expensive. I've personally used the Holley HP150s, and it would be the one that I would suggest:

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel...s/parts/12-150

Finally, you could run a regulator after the mech pump, or, you could reach out to Paul Spotts, he has tested and verified fuel psi of all the available mech pumps, and has the best info on brands and types.


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I have heard of that getting retrofitted into a custom intank set up. They shortened the suction line in the tank so the suction sock was pulling from the bottom of the tank. Then used a low pressure in tank electric up from something in the early 80s. There were some smaller intank electric pumps designed for application to feed small carburetors. They rigged up electric bulkhead fitting for the wiring.

I’ve eliminate mechanical pumps on stock engines using a self priming diagram pump a few times. To make it work correctly all the time it needs a pressure regulator with a return line. Otherwise the diaphragm pump will have a difficult time to keep consistent fuel pressure and occasionally push’s fuel past the needle and seat.

I researched several OEM in tank pumps and the one I narrowed it down to was the 1978 Monza 305V8 pump. Only problem is it is too big in diameter to fit through the sending unit hole. This is beginning to look like more trouble than it's worth. Maybe I will just add a regulator to the existing pump and live with the long crank times. Thanks to everybody who answered.

Here's one of Spott's posts on FB denoting the high psi issue and to use the Carter dual diaphragm one instead:

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1FmoxjpGfg/

A post made someone else in that thread mentions the Delphi AMF0100 as one that has proper psi.

As I mentioned, if you call, he may be able to source a good one or point you in the right direction.


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If your looking for a low cost solution, an in-line external fuel pump of the "solenoid" design would do the trick. They kind of look like an old canister in-line fuel filter with 2 wires coming out of it. Easy to frame mount and with some simple rubber isolators, pretty quiet. Summit Racing has 368 different listings for these type pumps. $17.00-200.00. I would look for about 4-6 PSI and 30 or so GPM. It looked like $50-80 would buy a name brand pump like Edelbrock or Carter. If your set on going the in-tank route, maybe you can modify a 1971-1976 Vega fuel pump. They were low pressure for a carb. application.

Your mechanic pumps over pressure and it’s noise you say it makes is likely related I gotta say.

They also used fuel tank mounted low pressure pumps in the mid 80's carbureted Camaros and Caprices for a vapor lock problem. You might be able to modify the sender for that pump.

Spotts says some of the arms/levers are not hardened properly and they make noise.

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If this is done then you would have to bypass the mechanical pump.


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I've been using Facet inline pumps for at least 60 years- since they were not transistorized! They are around $75 now. The 32 GPH ones are available in at least a couple of pressure ratings- I've used the 1.5-4.0 PSI ones for all sorts of vehicles from 4 HP Kohlers on up to 389 Pontiacs. They are very quiet. I've got a pair of them in parallel on the Pontiac Tri-Power in my GMC, mounted on rubber on a frame rail and they can barely be heard even with the engine stopped.

This seems like a good candidate for one of the RobbMC power surge tanks that you place in the engine compartment.

I am actually considering going from an in-tank pump to an external pump. I would still retain my external bypass regulator. I run 6an in and out. I did a retrofit kit from FiTech, which has you cut a hole in the tank and install a bolt in flange.

I just don't want to drop a gas tank to replace a pump. Firebirds have a short rubber filler neck connector that doesn't like to be disturbed. Ever.

Universal 255 lph kit:
https://fitechefi.com/product/50014-...600-hp-module/

Decent kit, but 1967 F body gas tank is soooo shallow it barely fit. But your application might be a breeze.

You could pair that with a bypass return regulator to do your carbureted or injected bidding. Once upon a time I found a regulator that could swap springs to do either carb or efi pressure.

Just put a door in the trunk. Quick and simple. I can change a pump with the tank full in 10-15 minutes.

True. But how will I hold in all the water that leaks past the trunk seal?:p

All this talk for goatracer and all over a mechanical pump that makes too much pressure?? Just a stock 389??

Sounds to me like you just need to find a good mechanical pump. Rigging up an entire fuel system just because you have a faulty mechanical seems like a bandaid for the actual issue.

It can't be just me but I haven't had a stock style mechanical make too much pressure. Ive only had them not make enough. And I still have a half dozen cars here that run mechanicals.

If it were mine I stay away from carter, air tech, AC, and all that stuff that looks like stock cheap pumps because that's what they are.....cheap i either run a robbmc or I buy the summit brand pumps. The summit pumps that are around 60 gph only make 7-ish psi and work fine on stock and mild engines. That would be super simple and way easier solution and not have to cobble up the fuel system with add on stuff

Lol that's a different problem

In all seriousness if you don't want an access door it's not the end of the world. The chances of a pump failure and dropping the tank are pretty slim. A good walbro which is what the OEM uses will go for 10+ years and more than 100,000 miles and in many cases much longer than that. Zillions of new cars everywhere and people don't even think twice about it.

Out of 4 cars here with in tank pumps for many years I only had to replace one. It was in service for maybe 4-5 years I think, and it showed signs, low pressure, sounded a little funny, but never quit or left me stranded. I have an access door on that one. Swapped in a pump pretty quickly. That's been 3-4 years ago.

Just another example I just finished building a 450hp 383 SBC for my G-body with the intent of driving it regularly.
Kept it simple, carb and mechanical pump. I used a summit brand 60-80 gph pump that was around $80 I think it was. Works perfect. 1000 miles on the combo so far, no long cranks, fires right up, no hot start problems, and keeps up with the engine to 6000 rpm.

Ok shoot me…Edelbrock mechanical fuel pumps are low PSI pumps to mate up with their carbs…

x2 on the edelbrock mech pumps, had one on a 500+hp 467 that ran fine on the street and low 12s at the track, ~7psi ran deadhead. Changed to a robbmc and still run deadhead with no issues. After sitting for about a week it does require some short cranking to fill the q-jet bowl thats gone dry from either evap or drain back but just a couple 3 second cranks & it fires right up, not really a concern but I do want to go intank pump to avoid that & have better fuel supply.

Buying a better mech pump will fix teh psi issue but could still have the hard starting after sitting, the easy way to address that is to buy a low cost mech pump and run it inline with the mech, after sitting for awhile you just flip a switch to prime the system & it will start right up. There are pumps that will flow fuel when off, think carter makes one for low cost, and there is a diagram in a few older threads on here from a guy that shows how to make a bypass set up to go around the elect pump when its off. Do some research on that set up to deal with the hard starting instead of trying to back engineer a OEM intank pump or spend $500+ on a tanksinc type full in tank system.

The noise I was complaining about was not from the Mechanical pump but the Electric pumps that I have used in the past. The OEM pumps from the 1970's-1980's for carb cars are too big in diameter to fit through the opening in the tank. The earlier cars have a much smaller opening for the sending unit. Thanks for the options and I will consider them.

I have read several articles about replacement mechanical pumps making too MUCH pressure. The recommendation was a Robbmc pump but that is expensive and a bit of over kill for a stock engine. I was not looking to rebuild the fuel system. I was looking for an easy fix that is why I was considering an in tank OEM pump but I found that one would not fit through the opening.

An in tank pump is not an easy fix nor is it cheap.

The easy solution is using a mechanical pump that works right. While a good one may not sound cheap, it's cheaper than a proper in tank setup.

The smaller robbmc pump, while maybe overkill for a stock engine really isnt the point. It's quality and reliability that is the main concern and you get that with the robbmc pump. There isnt much that's cheap about these cars anyway. Reliability rates higher in my book even if I have to pay 3 times as much.

I guess you just have to decide what's more important to you and roll the dice.

The summit pumps I mentioned are perfectly fine and cheaper. Still overkill for a stock engine but.....

Edelbrock/Holley pumps also work, some of which are rebuildable too like the robbmc which is another nice benefit.
You have a lot of options aside from electric stuff

This sounds like 3 goals.

1st is reducing pressure at the carb.

2nd is filling an empty carb (priming) to avoid extended cranking.

3rd is solving the 1st and 2nd without adding annoying noise.

It seems you may be prioritizing the priming goal since you want an electric pump. If so, there are lots of recommendations in the thread.

If you are willing to just fix the overpressure and continue accepting the empty carb hassle to save money, I think you might be OK with an inexpensive aftermarket mechanical pump.

Since you state the current pump generates too much pressure, does this mean you have fittings to put a gauge at the carb or did you conclude this based on other symptoms, like flooding?

I ask this because it is possible to overpower any needle and seat in the carb inlet. If the needle and seat fail to seal, it will ALWAYS be overpowered. This may be obvious but thought I'd ask...

Personally, if you think the issue is a mechanical pump delivering too much pressure and you can actually measure it, I'd start by replacing the pump and measuring the pressure again. There are many aftermarket pumps that are spec'd at ~7 psi max. I'm an example of buying one of those that delivered over 10psi so I understand and agree it is a crap-shoot and there are trust issues.

But the replacement did NOT overpressure my carb. No, it wasn't anywhere near the quality of a RobbMc but you can buy 4 or 5 at the parts store for the same money and the install isn't difficult. Maybe buy 3 different pump brands, measure the pressure at the carb. When you find one that's not over-pressuring, return the other two... When you find all 3 of them over-pressuring, curse me and go spend more money?

As to electric pump noise, I once had one that rattled a lot. I think it was a cheap solenoid pump. Many of the "external" pumps recommended here are rotary vane designs. Just a guess but seems they'd be far less likely to make noise.

Personally, I still want to fix the priming problem by adding an electric pump in front of my mechanical pump and I think noise would be a good thing. I view it as power the pump, listen for the noise to stop, then crank knowing the carb bowl has been filled. Once it starts, I won't hear the pump and I may even be able to turn it off.

Good luck with all this! All these options add a lot of uncertainty.

Mike

Shiny was exactly right as to my goals. I have been doing this a long time (over 60 years) and some of the fixes that I would have used years ago don't exist any more. How much fuel pressure can I expect a Rochester 2bbl needle and seat to control? What needle and seat assembly is considered a good brand? My 1964 GP has an electric fuel pump that is reasonably quiet but I have no idea what it is. My GTO has a massive Edelbrock pump that can be heard over loud exhaust. I have a very good fuel pressure gauge set that can be installed in series with the carb.

I once did a pump like Mike and Jack referred to on a Ford Van 351 4Bbl when the fuel pump cam eccentric failed.

We have an old 350 Honda 4x4 ATV which has the fuel tank under the seat that has one of those style pumps. The only caution is all those pumps are not created equal, some aftermarket pumps built to much pressure and can overcome the needle and seat. On that Honda I have, Honda dealers loose there minds and start cursing if you ask to get parts for it because they had such bad experiences from everyone replacing the original pump with cheap aftermarket pumps. The pumps look the same but run a little more pressure when they go out of stroke. It slowly dilutes the oil with gas and created all kinds of trouble. Get the correct pump and it works great. I am guessing the Faucet model Jack has would be what you need. I have completely lost track of model differences.

I don't know what your carb can handle but this is what the 1970 service manual states for fuel pump pressures:

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1769488855

My car was a 2 bbl so yours is probably similar and the chart above made no distinction between 2 bbl and 4 bbl.

I measured the pressure it took to overpower the needle and seat on my carb and it held up to 12 psi.

It is probably safe to assume your carb is happy with pressure below ~9 psi. Most aftermarket mechanical pumps for a 70 are spec'd with max pressure of 6 to 9 psi. Here are some examples Carter sent me:

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1769489265

It is a fact that some aftermarket carbs will exceed these factory pressures but I don't think they all do. Some will actually do what they say!

Mike

One thing I've found with external electric pumps is that they don't have an extremely long service life. I ran a Mallory Comp 140 external pump with a return style fuel system in my other '67. After about 4 years and just a few thousand miles, it had about worn out the brushes. It's a quality pump but you could hear it when the engine was stopped. It was much quieter than the holley pumps of the same era, however. It's for sale cheap in the performance parts section. (shameless plug)

I'd recommend a RobbMC mechanical pump or a full conversion to a Tanks Inc in-tank system. I just installed the RobbMC 550 in my red '67, its a nice piece.

Question while I'm in here. The little gauges that fit on a DP fuel log, can they be trusted if they are NOT liquid filled?

Meh, I don't trust those little things liquid filled or not.

Maybe for a quick ball park check when cold but I don't rely on them. Especially after the engine warms up.

Best setup for a mechanical is to get it off the engine, mount it on the cowl, or use a sending unit and mount it in the car, and use a good quality auto meter or something similar.

Their was a reason all AC equipped vehicles had a return line from the pump to the tank.
If not equipped install one.
That includes mechanical or electric conversions.

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From the info Shiny supplied my needle and seat should be able to hold the pressure the pump is putting out. The N & S are from an Ames kit. Is there a better pair to use?

Is it flooding?

If so, have you measured pressure at the carb inlet to know what your pump is delivering?

If I were looking for parts, I'd call Cliff.

I have Cliffs accelerator pump in all my qjets for the fuel available. I ran a small electric pump in my SD for 30 yrs before it gave up. Now I a Robb Mc mechanical pump. Going to put it on,as soon as I get to figuring out what fittings I need to make it look stock. The pump is bigger.