water pump and pulley upgrades
 

I'm refreshing my 455 in my 69 Bird and decided on upgrading the water pump and pulleys, a few questions, are the CVF products quality , if I use a high flow pump should I still use there there high volume pulleys, thinking of getting their complete V belt system with brackets and PS pump for a non AC car, would like a suggestion on a aluminum pump with factory style, veins .
Also recommendation on a mini starter.

I have CVF pulleys for Sale in the high performance parts section. They are great quality pieces. I also have a Flowcooler AL ware pump that I would sell. PM me if interested.

I tried a CVF V-belt pulley kit for my engine. Couldn’t get things to line up, so I went with a OEM 71-later bracketry and pulley setup.

Their serpentine systems might be better, but have no direct experience with them.

I use a CVF pulley on my balancer in my race car and the quality is great.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/g.../gto/year/1972


This is my go to pump. I drive about 350 miles a week in my Pontiac and these last!

thats a good price

I currently have two FlowKooler pumps in service with absolutely no trouble from either. Currently building a 421 and already purchased their 8 bolt cast iron pump. I should know in a few months how good it is. As for a mini starter I’m a big fan of RobbMc products. I have two of there starters and they are great. Get them with the extra pinion support.

Thanks.

I too use this one

I have a Flowkooler pump. It’s fine.

I’m also a huge fan of CVF. Their customer service is great. I’ve used them a grip of time and if I had an issue they have just replaced it immediately. They are the best blend of good parts and reasonable prices. Plus they put scratch and blemished stuff on eBay even cheaper.

People use worn out pulleys all the time, and it’s just not worth it. It’s so hard to tell if those 50 year old pulleys are straight or worn slap out. Just buy new ones.

If I were buying all new I would buy a ribbed setup and not a v belt.

I use PRW pumps. Ive been using them for maybe 10 years on various projects and theyve been great, good quality. They aren't necessarily cheap but I don't go for something just because it's cheaper.
Ive had one on Dad's GTO for at least 10 years but now that I think about it, it's probably been longer.
I run one on my sons Vega, my G-body, and on my Chevelle. Theyve all been excellent.

As far as pulleys go I use factory stuff on all the cars. I'm not a fan of bling, the stock stuff works as intended with no hodge podging.

I do wish they didn’t charge you extra to get them in black like most of the pulley companies do.

One note on the aftermarket pulleys and brackets. It’s easy to over tighten a 10/12si alternator accidentally. Still a small price to pay to get rid of the stupid double strap design first gen firebirds got for the alternator.

I happen to like the straps. Keeps my thermostat from leaking :D

For water pumps, I prefer a cast iron body and cast full vane impeller. Dayco DP836 is my go to:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/DAC-DP836

Not sure what is meant by the "double strap design"

Are you referring to the extra support brackets used on alternators?

Dad's GTO is that way, many were that way. Some Chevrolets as well. I guess I don't quite understand why that would be an issue. The more the better is my thinking. I don't like that stuff wobbling around, especially high rpm and throwing belts. So if it's more solid, I'm all for it.

All our stuff is factory 50-60 year old OEM brackets and pulleys and it all bolts on and works perfectly. I've never had a reason to change any of it.

Some people just like the modern pieces with serpentine belts and such. That's fine if that's your flavor.

Stock stuff works great, keep the butchery down.

This nonsense pictured. I went through multiple peices with both factory parts purchased on eBay or here on the forums and aftermarket ones. I never got two that lined the slot up right.

I realize this may seem like I’m over reacting. But I suppose we all have little thing that get under their skin and I hate that design. I’ll die on that hill. And Pontiac knew it was a dumb design because they changed it in the 70s. My factory bracket efforts also always flipped the belts at high RPM on the track. Went aftermarket and the problem went away.

If you have good 70s brackets those are fine. I would still use newer repro pulleys. That said, while some people won’t like the look, and that’s fine, I like being able to tighten belts with a turnbuckle.

I realize this is debatable, but I personally think buying a made to go together aftermarket kit eliminates the cobbling and butchery. I can’t tell you how many project cars I’ve had with mismatched cobbled together factory pulleys and brackets. If it works it works, I’m not fixing something that isn’t broken, but if I get a car that has a janky setup, I’ll never again go through part numbers and try to piece together an original assembly buying multiple 50+ year old pieces from different sources. Just give me the aftermarket kit once and be done with it.

Perhaps I'm not knowledgeable regarding the latest models for Pontiac.

Aftermarket pulleys look like "Mickey Mouse Ears" to me. And, generally, with insufficient belt-wrap on at least one of the pulleys.

One issue I see in that photo is the belt not sitting in the pulley correctly. It's either too wide of a belt or an incorrect pulley. I could see that belt flying off just from that scenario.

If you're forced to buy brackets and pulleys second hand, searching ebay and what not, that's always a sketchy proposition no matter what the part is. There would be no guarantees you're not getting tweaked parts or modified stuff someone else monkeyed with, making it a real headache for the end user. Some of these back yard mechanics are real hacks, and pretty much ruin a lot of what would have been a good used part. Many times that's why it's for sale, lol.

For what it's worth I have much better luck at swap meets where I can eye ball the part before buying. Or if it's available new that's an option, however I am very seldom impressed with repop parts, whether it's blingy shiny stuff or factory replacement stuff. There always seems to be some form of modifying necessary to make repop stuff work like the OEM stuff does. That's just the nature of this hobby.

The Dayco DP836 now comes with a stamped steel impeller not cast iron and wanted to update the information I provided. They swithed over a year ago but old stock might be floating around.

Pontiac engineers knew what they were doing.
 

Will throw this out for the 47th time...

FIRST.... ALL '69 Pontiac V8's were originally assembled with a 4" hub height cast iron water pump. Over the years have rebuilt quite a few of the '69 "351" casting 11 bolt pumps.

To further iterate,, there is NO such thing as a '69 1/2 Pontiac V8 water pump.... that is nothing more than a term thrown out there by mistaken parts peddlers.

The 1/2" taller hub height 11 bolt water pump, the '124" was introduced in August of '69 for all 1970 model Pontiac A-B-GP models, & in Jan on the new 2nd Gen Birds.

Beginning in the late Fall of '69, that exact 1/2' taller hub height pump was introduced in service depts as a SERVICE REPLACEMENT on '69 V8 models (except "69 Firebirds) when it was combined with the correct application '70 model Pontiac V8 wp pulley ("127", "128", "129", "130")

Further, there is a reason the '70 model "124" casting 4 1/2" hub height water pump was never factory installed on a '69 V8 Bird.
That reason is evident when working on '69 Birds w 4 core radiators.... when the later 11 bolt wp & corresponding '70 wp pulley is substituted, the fan is jambed up too close to the radiator.

Checking out!

CVF advertises a lifetime warranty on their parts - Dave (64Speed) has experience with their warranty process.

Don’t kid yourself. It is possible that once the stat opens to move coolant thru the motor too fast for it to pick up heat as it should and on the other side of the system coolant can move too fast thru the rad for it dump the heat that it has picked up.

Moving coolant thru the rad too fast makes the rad area seem smaller then what it’s .

The cvf pulleys stopped my throwing of belts at high rpm. Running stock brackets without issue. Only thing notable is the thickness of the water pump pulley cuts it close for water pump studs. However they do send bolts if I remember right.

Respectfully, I don't buy that. More flow is always better heat transfer, whether it's air flow or coolant flow.

It's true. DeltaT time constant. Many years ago I tested that with my TA. And many others have too. Easy test. Take out thermostat completely. Max flow ytour cooling sys will get that way. Yup, take forever to warm up. And in town, slow stop and go driving, sure prob run cooler, as flow is cooler with lower RPM and engine power/throttle level

Now go on highway, go for a long hard rip. and keep in her for a while
Logic would suggest that then we have
More airflow due to speed
More coolant flow due to much higher RPM

But you will start having climbing temps. They will start creeping up and up and up.
You slow down and the temps go up even more before they start to come down

Why? The coolant was going so fast through the radiator that it had no time to remove enough of it's retained heat. Engine to coolant DeltaT is greater than the coolant to air DeltaT
Meaning, needs more time in rad to remove the heat than it does in block to pick up heat.

Scenario above, Put T stat back in and engine is stable at same high rpm load. Verifying flow speed matters

I cannot speak to the performance/reliability of the CVF water pump. I do have the polished CVF serpentine conversion on my 1970 Bird and can say it works perfectly with the exception of the power steering pump. I went through three of the power steering pumps in 2600 miles. There is something wrong in the manufacturing process of the polished pumps that contributes to leaks between the pump and reservoir and significant noise during operation. All were replaced under warranty, but pump number 4 was a black finish pump that the House of Hotrods said has been a trouble free version. I only have about 100 miles on the new pump but it is definitely much quieter than the polished versions I had earlier.
I originally had an Edelbrock Victor water pump installed on the engine build. The seal gave way after 1600 miles and the engine was prone to very high running temps at freeway speeds as well. I had not examined the pump prior to installation, but saw it after it came off the engine and was very surprised to measure the vane heights at an average of just 5/16". Edelbrock furnishes a new backer plate with the pump, but I fail to see how it could push enough coolant through the engine under high load conditions. Extremely disappointing for a $300 water pump.
I went to the PRW pump and have not had any overheating situations since.

Except that when you do your highway speed rip at higher rpm you not only increase coolant and air flow, but you increase heat generated by engine. So is your increase in temps due to coolant flow, or does the rate of heat generation now exceed rate of heat removal?

Your thermostat shuts to increase coolant temp, and opens to decrease it. Less flow equals increase temp, more flow equals decrease temp. From the factory, hd cooling/ac got smaller diameter pulleys for more flow. Engineers designing these systems knew more flow is better. More coolant flow, more air flow, more surface area, reduced ambient - all are factors to help cooling.

Good stuff, tho.:)

https://www.hotrod.com/how-to/95238

"This higher water velocity actually creates more turbulence in the water, which rejects heat much better. So, that is why we say the old rule of thumb slow down the water flow so it spends more time in the radiator in order to cool it better is really not correct at all. The higher flow rate and higher water velocity through the radiator core really goes a long way in helping that radiator reject the heat."

Flow velocity DOES matter, but not for the reasons (and testing) you state.

If you stay within the design limits of the systems Pontiac designed over the years, then you CANNOT move to coolant too quickly to cool.

Removing the stat and allowing "full flow" of the system doesn't really "prove" anything, other than bad things happen when you don't utilize the system as designed. So the coolant travels too fast to reject heat with no thermostat....so what? Who drives around like that?

The stat is there to regulate temp, restrict flow, create system backpressure, and reduce or eliminate aeration of the fluid. Aerated fluid does s *****y job of cooling as heat doesn't transfer to air. The first rule of flow dynamics 101 is that velocity is your friend.

Your testing "back in the day" was invalid.