1977 Trans Am; 1st owner modified??
 

I was speaking last night with a local that I have known for probably a little over twenty years;
Long story short, he is the second owner of his 1977 Trans Am;
Brentwood Brown, W72/4 spd, snowflakes.

He bought the car in 1985 off of what he believes to be the first owner;
Years ago he pulled a beautiful build sheet off of his gas tank, and it's for his car.
He also has PHS (Canadian invoice) on the car.
The car has a build date (from build sheet) of January 11th, and a shipping date (from the PHS supplied document) of January 17th.

The car has two things that I am incline to explain away as being modified under the first owners term;
1) the paint on it is 1978 Chesterfield Brown, not 1977 Brentwood Brown
2) no documentation supports this car being built with Hurst T-roof, but it has had Hurst hatches the entire time he has owned it.

I suggested that either a roof swap was done between 1977 & 1985, or a wrecked Hurst hatch car was used as a donor, and template for the swap.

It would seem logical to me that if it had a roof swap, and the car hada proper paint job during that time that all the original code 69 paint would seem to have disappeared under the wrong (for model year) code 69 paint.

What do you guys think?

Since it's not my car, I am not at liberty to share the documents.

Highly doubt a roof swap, those deals came later, first started running across t-top roof swaps in the mid 80's. Entire car repaints were common, & more common once the crap water based lacquers were introduced.

In the late 70's & early 80's, there were shops in many decent sized cities that installed T-tops, sunroofs, & the hideous opera windows. Hurst, American, Cars & Concepts tops, all were avail through such shops. Sometimes new car dealerships had tops installed to make a sale. Good friend at the time (late '79) had aftermarket t-tops on the 4" chopped roof of his orange '75 Chevy short narrow bed pickup. Def a low seller, have yet to run across another GM pickup of that era with t-tops.

oh?

I thought the Hurst hatches were never offered outside of the Hurst facility?

My 77 also has the Hurst T- tops and no mention of them on the build sheet. It is my understanding that these were dealer installed when the cars were new and that is why it does not appear on the build sheet. Also I knew a local guy with a 77 with the t-tops and his does not show them on the build sheet either.

It’s been a long tim, who knows.

I have been trying to find out as much as possible about CnC tops (I have them on my car). From what I have gathered they had a factory in the Detroit area where the cars were shipped from the factory and tops installed before going to dealers. I met a Hurst engineer at a show that confirmed with pics of the factory. Please let me know if you have any substantiated evidence otherwise. The owner/founder of Cars n Concepts was Dick Chrysler who previously owed Hurst.

Please forgive my ignorance;
But if it wasn't a factory option (eg: not in PMD issued literature) I had understood that the factory would not have been involved in getting options added;
Wouldn't the facotry invoice show a shipping route to the ordering dealer?

Maybe ordering dealers could re-route cars once they left the factory?

I meant no offense, I am trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together myslef. I read, was told by others and thought for years that aftermarket t tops i.e. American, CnC, etc. were typically done locally once they hit the dealers. After talking with the fellow at the show and him showing me pics of the factory things took a different turn. I have asked around with 'people in the know' and have yet to get a definitive answer as how the process was achieved. My PHS shows the dealer invoice but nothing at all noted about the tops, which I understand. I have run into a dead end at this point. No idea how the process went or even the extra cost.

right out of HS, briefly dated a young lady whose dad had bought her a new brown '79 Esprit, then he paid to have CnC tops installed locally. Do remember those tops were quite large, & she seldom removed them.

More info on CnC tops, note the CnC topped 78 Camaro parted by, believe his name was "Joe". He & his buddy were early posters on the TAC site.

Https://www.firebirdtransamparts.com...tops/candc.htm

note the installation shop; "G CLASSICS" & installation date January 30 1979.

I have a 77 and early 78 SE that both have Hurst tops. Neither show them on the PHS.

The 78 has a mint build sheet, but I can't remember if they're mentioned on it. I'll dig out and grab a pic for you guys.

I had a 1975 Hurst Olds Cutlass I was trying to purchase from a dealer in 1979 that had damaged hatches/roof section. At that time it was sent into an authorized center in Canada for the repair. It came back with the roof section replaced and new Hurst hatch panels. This would indicate there were ways of getting the work completed elsewhere.

Ok so I have some info. My 77 SE PHS doesn't show the Hurst tops as an option, neither does my 78 PHS show it, however my 78 build sheet does show the tops listed as an option. I grabbed some pics for you guys.

For '77 & 78 models, the Y82 Special Edition package INCLUDES the Hurst hatch roof treatment. Thats why you're not seeing a separate option listed on the invouce for Hurst hatches. Have owned two '77 Y81 4spd projects. Currently, one of my projects is a 77 Y82 4spd, built several weeks after your '77 Y82 4sod.

I know. I was just showing how even on cars that they were standard on, they didn't show up on PHS, but apparently did on build sheets.

This seems to be something that confuses some people, and maybe needs to be punctuated for clarity;
If it was an extra cost option, it will show up on the PHS;
If it was a part of an option package, it will not show up on PHS, because that specific options RPO is tied to the package.

In the case of the original query, this guys car is NOT a special edition, it's a Brentwood brown W72/4spd car

This would not have been viable. Who'd ship the their new Firebird all the way to some factory in Detroit when there was heaps of aftermarket sunroof companies installing these roofs all over the country? The factory might have been the one manufacturing the tops, GM never would have sent any cars there from the factory. A dealer might have sent it, but not the GM plant.

Also, Hurst T-Tops were a popular aftermarket accessory, many people bought hard top T/A's off the showroom floor, and then years down the track may have gone to a local shop or back to the dealer to have them installed. Hurst tops were being installed aftermarket all the time on plenty of Firebirds, even early 70's ones, I've seen half a dozen 70-72 T/A's that had Hurst/Texas T-Tops installed on them by the original owners. Pontiac may not have had them installed from factory before the car was shipped to the dealer, but that didn't stop the dealer buying a kit after the car was delivered to them to have the work done after locally.

Yep, they ruined many cars with those cut in T Tops, if you have not ever owned one you wouldn’t understand!Lol! They were not a completely engineered package like the Fisher factory T Tops.

It may not have been. But I saw pictures of the factory with at least a hundred cars in the lot being converted. I spoke with an engineer that was there. My weak link at this point is the chain of command. The big 3 farmed out a lot of customization on cars. ASC did convertible mustangs for awhile, CnC had their hand in other modifications as well other than hatch roofs. That is the stuff I am trying to find out. Looking for facts not speculation.

Hmmm...TAkerry didn't mention anything about owners sending their cars "from ALL OVER THE COUNTRY" to Detroit so I don't know how you jumped to that conclusion. And the GM plant wouldn't have sent cars to HURST?? Huh? That is exactly how thousands of GM cars got Hurst hatches in 1975-76. It wasn't until halfway through 1978 that GM started installing T roofs (now made by Fisher Body) on the assembly line themselves. Look it up.

As to the originality of the T-tops on the Brown '77 belonging to your friend Jon, I would expect the GM of Canada docs to mention them if they were originally ordered on the car. Those docs throw everything and the kitchen sink on there.

/\ he trumps this with a beautiful build sheet that he found decades ago;
the car has no t-roof option.