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-   -   Front control arms (https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=858727)

Drewsgto 05-16-2022 04:24 PM

Front control arms
 
Has anyone tried dynacorn front control arms? My 72 GTO needs the front suspension rebuilt and price is reasonable for the arms, about $100 each. I cant find a shop to press out the bushings and with the cost of bushings and ball joints, it's close to the same price? Any other mfgs that are good? I like moog but they do not make the arms.
Mark

JLMounce 05-16-2022 05:08 PM

I have not heard or seen any information about these, but there's a decent chance they suffer from the same issues you find with the Global West knockoffs. Namely that the construction of the arm itself is fine, but that the components installed (bushings and ball joints) are of extremely suspect quality.

It's probably the ball joints in this case that I'd maybe check a little further into.

HWYSTR455 05-19-2022 12:37 PM

You can rent one of those C clamp style 'front end tools' or even buy one fairly cheap, they do come in handy for a number of jobs.

This is Eastwood's press, $72, pretty sure it's a rebranded OTC:

https://www.eastwood.com/eastwood-4-...yABEgJpTvD_BwE

I agree, I would never trust the ball joints in any suspension part as-shipped, unless it's from a well-know aftermarket supplier.

I've heard comments on the aftermarket factory repop control arms, from a handful of sources, that they are 'generic', and are listed for a number of different apps. You kind of won't know until you actually go to align the car, and by then, you will be cussin' up a storm.

Dynacorn is kind of hit or miss on some parts, and I can't say exactly whether the control arms fit in that category, but if the arms you have aren't damaged or worn out, I'd say reuse them.

If they are worn out, damaged, etc, (ball joint loose-fit is common on lowers, for example), then I would say go to an aftermarket 'performance' arm instead of a 'replacement' one.


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RocktimusPryme 05-25-2022 12:53 PM

Having just done that same job on my 67, my advice would be to just have someone else do it. No matter what parts you decide to use. Though I would say that having a complete arm, either tubular or stamped that was brand new would have eliminated about 60% of the headache.

I asked the guy who aligned my car how much he would charge and he said probably 3-400.

Once I was hot and dirty trying to do mine with Oreileys borrowed and beat up loaner tools that was missing pieces I was really beating myself up for trying to save a few hundred dollars.

I do a lot of work on my own cars and that job sucked. A lot.

JLMounce 05-25-2022 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RocktimusPryme (Post 6344662)
Having just done that same job on my 67, my advice would be to just have someone else do it. No matter what parts you decide to use. Though I would say that having a complete arm, either tubular or stamped that was brand new would have eliminated about 60% of the headache.

I asked the guy who aligned my car how much he would charge and he said probably 3-400.

Once I was hot and dirty trying to do mine with Oreileys borrowed and beat up loaner tools that was missing pieces I was really beating myself up for trying to save a few hundred dollars.

I do a lot of work on my own cars and that job sucked. A lot.

Pretty much this. If the OP has the tools and skills to replace the arms himself, but can't do the bushings etc. by the time you start adding up that labor and good parts, a set of quality entry level (not the Chinese knockoffs) control arms starts to make more sense.

dataway 05-25-2022 01:32 PM

2 Attachment(s)
The repop arms I got a few years ago were horrible. Sent them back. Ball joint angle was all wrong, metal was thinner, very little reinforcing around the ball joint. Ended up restoring my originals (which had been cut for larger shocks) and using those.

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...2&d=1653499818

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...3&d=1653499824

HWYSTR455 05-25-2022 01:37 PM

$72 for tools, $280 for a set of knock-off arms, maybe $100 for ball joints, and you have the tools, plus new tubular arms with bushings, for the price of someone else doing it for you. AND, you know it was done right.

No matter how you choose to do it, you will still have to buy the ball joints. If you choose to do the bushings too, which would make sense since it's apart, the cost gap is in your favor w new arms.

Here's the go-to knock off arms:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/15439882673...3ABFBM8NWVxJ9g

Would be a good time to clean those areas up too, and inspect for any potential damage.

Just deductible reasoning, it's obviously your choice.

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HWYSTR455 05-25-2022 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dataway (Post 6344667)
The repop arms I got a few years ago were horrible. Sent them back. Ball joint angle was all wrong, metal was thinner, very little reinforcing around the ball joint. Ended up restoring my originals (which had been cut for larger shocks) and using those.

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...2&d=1653499818

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...3&d=1653499824

That looks similar to the experience I've heard from others as well.

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RocktimusPryme 05-25-2022 01:47 PM

I really think the move is to buy your own parts. Especially the ball joints. If you want to let the shop buy the bushings, especially stock replacement rubber bushings. Sure thats fine. But I would buy the ball joints yourself so you know you get good quality that will probably outlast you. Or in my case a taller upper joint as well. But then let someone else do the labor. It just seems like at least what I was quoted was a bargain to do that deal.

The biggest hassle outside of rebuilding the stamped arms without bending them, is that the frame mounts are ALSO stamped steel. Even though they are thick they are likely going to be malformed as well. I ended up having to make a spreading tool out of all-thread to get my rebuilt arms back in. I got the arms put together and thought there was a light at the end of the tunnel. Then I found out getting the arms back in was an ordeal in and of itself.

Then you have to take the car to the alignment shop afterwards anyway. So if you can get it done AT a front end alignment shop, that is the way to go.

HWYSTR455 05-25-2022 02:12 PM

You have to pull the lower arms out in a downward angle, not straight out to the side. The arm needs to be as low to the floor as you can get them. The opening is not 'square', for lack of better terms. It has to be about a 45 degree angle from horizontal and verticle to be able to remove them.

Spreading the tabs is not a good idea by the way, can cause cracks at the welds, but it is what it is.


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RocktimusPryme 05-25-2022 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455 (Post 6344679)

Spreading the tabs is not a good idea by the way, can cause cracks at the welds, but it is what it is.


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IDK what to tell you dude, she wasnt going in as it was lol. I fought with it for a looooong time. And i had plenty of room so I tried all the angles.

For what its worth I did consider that a little bit and used some undersized all thread instead of the max 1/2" diameter I could have used. So I figured the all thread was going to bend some before I could really put a ton of pressure on it. Which is some super bro math, but the inside cross section of the frame mount was for sure smaller then the cross section of the new installed bushings.

So Im not arguing that it should be your first choice. Im sure its not, but in my case it was what I could do.

But this all goes to my point to just let someone else have this one. If they hurt you frame you can fight them over it.

ZeGermanHam 05-26-2022 12:24 PM

I would echo the sentiments above and stay far away from cheap control arms & ball joints. I got burned in that area with a different car a number of years ago. I installed a cheap kit including control arms, tie rod ends, and sway links, and literally every rubber boot failed (cracked open) within 2 weeks and the ball joints themselves failed with less than 5k miles on them. Got a warranty refund and replaced them with name brand parts and haven't had any problems since. When it comes to suspension components, you usually get what you pay for. You also have to recognize the limitations of online reviews. You may find a super cheap set of control arms that has great reviews, but people typically review products right after they install the parts, not after they have 5k, 10k, 20k miles on them.

HWYSTR455 05-26-2022 01:41 PM

The one link for control arms I posted are the ones that used to be carried by Right Stuff Detailing, and those are the good ones, minus the ball joints.

They've been on the 442 for around 40k miles, no issues whatsoever.

You can search here, many have run them for a long time, after replacing the ball joints.

Some went to them after they had issues with the factory repop arms, just to say.

Now there are other aftermarket tubular arms that are junk, just look for the ones that are pictured in the listing for the link posted and you will be fine. (of course, after you replace the ball joints)


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JLMounce 05-26-2022 01:51 PM

I had the summit branded global west copies on my wife's Chevelle and the arms themselves were fine. The finish was good, they were the proper size and orientation, welds were good. The ball joints were lousy and the delrin bushings were loose in the housings. From a performance standpoint the bushings were fine, they were just noisy as a result of the tolerances.

As ZeGermanHam mentions, the problem is that a lot of these components out there that are lower cost are built with sub-par parts that don't last. Most people building these cars may put a 1000 miles on the car a year, so the parts are well past the warranty. It's cheaper for the manufacturer to deal with the few claims that come in then to provide the product with quality parts.

There's a reason that quality "entry level" arms like BMR are still a good bit more expensive than the knock-offs. Even then, you're still getting a lot of polyurethane, which isn't the best choice for suspension components. You want high durometer rubber or delrin. If you look at the delrin bushings found in the knock-offs compared to arms like Global West, SPC, DSE etc. you'll notice that there's about 3X the amount of delrin in the higher priced arms. It's my opinion that it is largely the subpar delrin bushings found in the knockoffs that have caused the internet to claim that they are noisy and harsh. You're more or less riding on a steel cartridge with about a 1/4" of nylon as a cushion with those things.

Formulajones 05-26-2022 04:19 PM

I just rebuild the stock control arms here. It's not all that bad. A good press makes pretty easy work of it.

I would, (and do) just rebuild your originals before I'd purchase a set of aftermarket stock stamped steel pieces. I haven't been overly impressed with what I've seen on the stamped steel stuff, but you've figured that out already based on the comments it's pretty obvious. Of course if you want to go tubular then that's a different story.

Pick yourself up a cheap press at Harbor Freight for the job, it'll come in handy for many other things down the road.

Formulajones 05-26-2022 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dataway (Post 6344667)
The repop arms I got a few years ago were horrible. Sent them back. Ball joint angle was all wrong, metal was thinner, very little reinforcing around the ball joint. Ended up restoring my originals (which had been cut for larger shocks) and using those.

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...2&d=1653499818

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...3&d=1653499824

LOL I found out that's how they are building a lot of the newer vehicles today. Back when I needed upper ball joints on my 05 duramax I found that was a job they didn't recommend attempting. They make the factory control arms so flimsy that pressing the ball joints in and out generally distorts the A-arm to the point it's not safe to use anymore and they sometimes even crack around the ball joint as a result. They are basically considered throw away items. The only alternative are brand new upper control arms complete with bushings and ball joints and just do a complete R&R. :rolleyes: They don't make much you can rebuild these days, just remove and replace.

JLMounce 05-26-2022 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Formulajones (Post 6344978)
LOL I found out that's how they are building a lot of the newer vehicles today. Back when I needed upper ball joints on my 05 duramax I found that was a job they didn't recommend attempting. They make the factory control arms so flimsy that pressing the ball joints in and out generally distorts the A-arm to the point it's not safe to use anymore and they sometimes even crack around the ball joint as a result. They are basically considered throw away items. The only alternative are brand new upper control arms complete with bushings and ball joints and just do a complete R&R. :rolleyes: They don't make much you can rebuild these days, just remove and replace.

There's a documentary called "A Better Horse" about the Mustang that started the S197 generation. There's a lot of behind the scenes filming that takes place and you can see this showing up first hand. Engineers are under the microscope of trying to maintain a weight target on a product while also under the influence of been counters and suppliers.

EPA and NHTSA regulations, combined with the electronic pork that everyone wants has added so much weight to the automobile that they are scrounging everywhere they can in an attempt to make a fuel economy target.

dataway 05-27-2022 09:57 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Even some pretty big problems can be fixed. After seeing the repops I decided to go ahead and repair my lowers that ..uhhh.. "someone" who might have had the same initials as me, cut open many years ago for a larger shock.

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...7&d=1653659814

android 211 05-28-2022 11:24 AM

I just paid Goodyear $200 (cash) to one of their mechanics to strip my old A arms. Next I have to get them powder coated, cheaper than sandblasting them and painting them myself. Taller ball joints will be another $100. I already had Moog bushings. Paint like $40 here a while ago.

Formulajones 05-28-2022 11:44 AM

Yikes!! $200 to clean them up?

I just toss them in the blasting cabinet and hit them with glass bead, they come out looking brand new and only takes 20-30 minutes.

Maybe I should just do that for a living, $400 an hour sounds pretty good :D


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