Late 64 GTOs with 326 motors
 

Anyone ever hear of late 64 GTOs with factory 326HO motors instead of 389s?
Supposedly they ran out of 389 motors??

You have to stop and think this through, if none of the parts manuals (aftermarket, or factory) never had a notation about a GTO with a factory installed 326HO engine in them, it never happened. Also the many consumer agencies would have made it known that you didn't get what you paid for, when you bought your new 64 GTO. If they ran out of engines for the GTO, then the B body cars, that used the same engine as the GTO, would have also run out, they never got any 326 HOs in full size cars either.

Another thing that rings as a lie is they made substantially less numbers of 326 HO engines than they did 389s, where would the surplus have come from since 326 HO engines are about as scarce as hens teeth, and always have been a very low production option.

Pontiac did advertise a 389 engine in 1964, it's what made the GTO the first mass produced original musclecar. A homologation of parts from one car maker, that's what GTO stands for loosely translated. Take an engine intended for the full size car line, and put it in an intermediate chassis. Putting an intermediate engine in an in intermediate chassis is called a Tempest/Lemans.

I've never heard that rumor in all the years I've owned Pontiacs, raced Pontiacs, and made my living working on cars. I've always specialized in working on Pontiacs during the last 50 years and this is the first encounter with that rumor.`

I have run into GTOs with 326s installed after the owner kicked the rods out of the OEM 389 that came in the car, but those cars did originally have a 389.

I'd classify this as an unsubstantiated rumor, that has zero basis on truth.

It would be very hard to believe. But so many weird things happened back then. My '64 GTO was built with a Tempest hood. I would think that's one of one. There's a note at the bottom of the build sheet "*Use standard Tempest hood". I need to figure out where I put my PHS stuff.

Would make more sense to substitute 421s. We know of at least two that emerged that way. (Red car and blue one ?)

Sure - thousands of Lemans were delivered with 326s - the GTO badging was just added 10+ years later and the bull**** stories explaining how it could be a legitimate 'GTO' like this were born.

Late 64 GTOs with 326 motors
 

Info was posted on Facebook OHC group. It was attributed to a Fred Simmonds presentation on weird cars Pontiac built. Fred even commented on the post but didn’t correct it. I thought I might of missed something in the 40yrs I’ve been playing with Pontiacs.


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I think you could do more special ordering back then like this hood. If you can find it on the build sheet I would suspect it was factory.

Another thought may be that the 326 was dealer installed. seemed like dealers would do things like that back in the day, less issue with warranty coverage.

This^^^^. Same thing as the 'early '67 GTO's with 389's' or 'early '67 GTO's that still had tripower.

Been into these cars since the '70's. Others here since Day One. None of these stories are true. '64 GTO's had 389's in them from the factory, never 326's. Two had 421's that were dealer installed, but we know about them.

PHS would be needed to prove this but as one post shows, a flat hood could be special ordered so what if a 326HO was special ordered, it could happen. Certain dealers had more clout and may have ordered this to race in a certain class.

Sure it's possible but that's a lot different scenario than "The factory ran out of 389 engines".. that just plain sounds like one of those BS urban legend type tales.

Exactly

My uncle was a Pontiac Dealer for 67 years and he said he never had any problems getting
389 GTO engines in GTOs and 389 engines in full-sized vehicles.

So much BS out there today.

Tom V.

A racer told me one time why would I ever spend a penny more on a GTO for Racing when a Tempest was exactly the same chassis and would package the 400/428/455 engines in the same chassis.

Tom V.

Sounds like a story made up by a guy with a 326 in his GTO. "It was made that way from the factory, so that'll be $75,000!"

Or a guy who put GTO emblems on his 326 Lemans.

We have our ways to tell a real 64. Easiest from inside the trunk.

That's the first place a guy cloning addresses.

I’m not saying that the story is true but I went to college in 1965 with a fellow who’s father’s 1964 Catalina came from the factory with a 326 engine. I didn’t believe it until I saw the engine myself. The car was still under warranty so if it was replaced it would have been replaced with a 389.

Was the car a stick shift??

This is just stupid about the GTOs with 326, why would it only be a few at the end of 64 model run, why would there not also be some early 65s with them too.

During the gas crisis it was common to swap 326-350s into 389-400-421-428-455 engine compartments. You could also drill one hole in a Saginaw and bolt up a BW Overdrive.

I was hit by a pizza truck on the right rear quarter panel and hit on the left rear quarter panel by a 62 Corvette years ago.
I had my rear quarters replaced with Lemans quarters back in the 1982-1983 time frame. I did not try to hide anything,
the welded up Lemans holes are not even cleaned up.

Plus I have no intention of ever selling the car so "playing games" with sheet metalis of no interest to me.
The original 389 engine is on a stand, the 455 engine, 4 wheel disc brakes, 9" Ford rear, and Doug Nash 5
speed trans all say the car has been modified.

It is a piece of sheetmetal. The Documentation John V has says it was and still is a 64 GTO in spirit.

Tom V.

[QUOTE=padgett;6297657]During the gas crisis it was common to swap 326-350s into 389-400-421-428-455 engine compartments. ]

What kind of facts do you have to back up that statement??

U47, because that's what many people did in the day. There are no facts, just reality. Grow up.

[QUOTE=U47;6297801]My neighbor in 74 pulled his 396 for a 307 for a couple of years out of his Chevelle, told my dad he was waiting for gas to come down again. He was a pilot for UAL - I guess the commute from Simi to LAX was a bugger...
.

I passed on an Alpine blue 68 GTO because it had a 350 2bbl swapped in... I shouldn't have though. It was a solid driver with a 3spd manual.

Throwing a specious statement out there is foolish. I'm sure it was done, but miniscule compared to the amount of 400"+ in cars that were out there.
If you want to throw personal insults, I suggest the club house.

Many times people beat on muscle cars, and damaged the engines due 99 out of 100 from abuse, and neglect. When the dealership turned down a warranty claim, they had little to no choice than to buy a cheap engine and put it back on the road, as it was their daily transportation, and they were still making payments on it.

If they bought it used, they had maybe a 30 day warranty that meant nothing, and a broken car that they still owed money to the bank on. Used car dealers many time wouldn't even give you a 30 warranty on a used muscle car.

Lots of these cars were sold off for much less than they paid for them, or they were stored away in barns (barn finds). Sometimes they were parked in yards and just left to rot. I've picked up my share of Pontiac muscle cars with blown transmissions, or engine for almost nothing, fix the carnage, and either drive it, or flip it, and turn a profit on it.

If I had a 350/400 2bbl engine lying around, we'd swap on the 4bbl from the grenaded engine, and back on the road, or a for sale sign went on it.

I once bought a 70 Judge with a RA III engine in it that was worn out because they ran a Holley on a Edelbrock P4B with no air cleaner. It also came with a 65 389 out of a Bonneville that was good that the guy bought, but ran out of ambition to install it, $500. The newspaper ad never even mentioned it was a Judge, just said, 70 GTO for sale.

I drove that car as a daily, spun a rod in the RA III, put the 389 in it and then it got wrecked from someone that turned in front of me. Between the insurance money, selling the RA III short block off, and selling what was left of the car. I made a couple thousand dollars over what I paid for the car.

BTW, the car was put back together, and is still around today with a 400 from a 77 T/A in it.

Lots of these cars were bastardized after the born with engine blew up or got taken out and a smaller engine substituted for fuel mileage or just to keep it running. I've seen guys trade a high HP engine for a plain jane engine, and some money, then they let the car get repoed.

Lots of stories when it comes to old muscle cars.

:focus:

I have to agree that people installed whatever was available to them when they had a issue with the factory engine or the gas crisis and long drives each day forced them to swap in a smaller engine to get to work and back. Common sense says you do some of that stuff IF NECESSARY.

The post says late 64 GTOs with 326 engines. That implies PRODUCTION ENGINES off the LINE. NEVER HAPPENED.
Premium Gas in 1964-65 was 26 cents a gallon.
No reason to put in a smaller engine AND the factory, as posted, had lots of 64 GTO Engines. So anything in the way
of an engine swap MIGHT BE TRUE at some point in the cars history but NEVER off the line in 1964.

THAT is a FACT.

Tom V.

OP sounds like so many stories that used to float around. We have all heard them.

"My brother-in-law's nephew bought a new XXX that got 40 mpg. Until the factory security people came and took back the carburetor. It was an experimental model that wasn't supposed to get on the assembly line. The oil companies paid to get it back because they didn't want to lose fuel sales if that model went into production."

Or you are at a cruise night with yourold darksider and somebody starts talking another story. "My cousin bought a Bonneville in 59 with a 421. Fastest thing in the county. Nobody could touch him stop light to stop light."

Great story in a one stop light town. And you never got the story from the guy who had the car. And there is no way to back check the facts and see who started the story. Factory 326 in a GTO. Never happened.

And really who thinking about it would have paid for it -- unless I'm wrong there is nothing on a 64 that couldn't be optioned on a Lemans except the hood and the 389 (in either form). So it is 1964 and you want a "GTO" with a 326HO - order the Lemans with the HD cooling, suspension upgrade and handling package...

From another direction - my 64 is about as late as they come (July 27) and came with a 389 and trips.

Post up some pics in the lobby. Sounds like a cool vehicle.
Tom V.

Ours was built on 7/6/1964. Not the latest, but certainly towards the end of the run.

Did it still have a flat hood on the car when you bought it ?
And do you have a flatty on it now ?

This is most likely your GTO Documentation
- or there are 2 of them out there .

With the Hood being the best part of the 64 GTO exterior , it is hard to imagine why they chose that switch. But maybe since the fake hood scoop craze was still so young at that point - it had not grown on that buyer yet.

As far as a "sleepy" aspect - there is nothing noted about delete GTO badges.
So it would have still announced itself as a GTO
They must not have liked the fake scoops - at all

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1638110219

Maybe we have missed something , somewhere.
It sounds as though Fred did not object or offer any edits to the statement.
Maybe he has seen some 64 Documentations with 326 4bbl notations.
Obviously none of us are aware of it, or ever seen such an animal or documented example from PHS.

Running out of engines does not sound like a true scenario (imho)
But there could be other explanations to a few exceptions.
Such as the exception with JSchmitz's GTO
:2cents:

Not that it is highly relevant here, but the 2005 GTOs were also available to option to the flat hood instead of the hood with scoops. Twelve cars were built this way. I'm going to guess those that still exist probably have had 05/06 hoods swapped onto them by now though.

No clue why anyone then or more recently would have opted away from the scooped hood. Maybe back in the day they had plans to cut a hole in the hood for a big intake or a blower and though it would be easier to cut a flat hood than a scooped hood. Or maybe they just like the look better. People are weird sometimes. :D

Did those GTO's have any modified GTO's like the Firebirds had?
Like the ASC conversions, etc?

They had flat hoods installed because they would receive RAM AIR hoods and other mods.

:confused:

To U47. Sorry about taking so long to answer your question about the trans. It's been so long I don't remember what it had for a trans. In fact I may not have even looked. I know back then you could special order a lot of stuff. Could the owner possible ordered a non-offered engine especially where it would bolt in with no alterations?

This is correct. The guy on Facebook was quoting info he heard from Fred at a Pontiac show. Fred chimed in but didn’t speak to the 326Ho in a 64 GTO comment the guy had made.


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That might be mine. Don't have my VIN memorized. I'll have to look. My car had a GTO hood on it when I bought it in Springfield, IL in 1985. Also had a 455, different year Muncie, and a Olds 12/10 bolt 3.23 rear. Also had power brakes added, etc. Now I really want to look up my PHS stuff! I think my car was also built with a 3-speed trans. Not sure.