starter question
 

In the mid 60's, was there a starter available and a heavy duty starter also?

Don't know what your limits are on "mid 60s", but here is the list of starters from the '66 Pontiac Chassis Parts Catalog

I believe that one can oversimplify things by suggesting that the higher compression motors, or ones which had ‘ram air’ exhaust manifolds typically had a heavy duty starter - all the others used a regular duty starter.

I believe the differences were internal windings on the starter housing, and a high heat solenoid.

Granted, it does get a smidge more complicated than the way I explained this, but to answer your question;
Yes.

This is from the GTO forum: "GTOs had High Torque starters with special coils and armature. From 65 to 69, the HO and RA 1108353 starters were a bit more Heavy Duty than the 1107355 used in the base GTOs. The solenoid was also a heavy duty version. A quick way to determine high or low torque starters is the HT starters had larger coil windings and case. This required a copper spacer bar between the windings and the solenoid motor terminal." Some full size cars had heavier duty starters as well, I've gone by the presence of the copper spacer bar mentioned.

https://www.gtoforum.com/threads/sta...ration.141542/

I forget if it will fit a A body and even if you might still find one, but the Olds Diesel starter used in the 80s was a torque monster, but it could still suffer from hot solenoid syndrome.

The Olds Diesel starter had a bigger starter-drive gear, and consequently needed a smaller-diameter flywheel/flexplate on Olds applications. No idea if it happens to fit Pontiac.

The copper spacer between solenoid and the electrical connection to the armature and field-coils is NOT a reliable method of determining a "real-true" "High-Torque" starter. Plenty of starters were made with short field coils and armatures with short windings, but then crammed into a longer case with the copper spacer. Remember that these starter motors have been rebuilt, perhaps numerous times--there's no telling what the rebuilder installed inside the case; and I won't promise that some of these "phony" "High-Torque" starters didn't come directly out of GM in their infinite cost-cutting.

my response was intentionally over simplified, and I have very limited knowledge for pre-1969 model year stuff.

But on the subject of identifying, there are a couple different cases and many have a narrowed end.
I agree that using one physical feature as a means of identifying a good starter is probably not too reliable.
The stamped number on the case should indicate what the contained windings are - and I'd go by that as the start of anything.

Also, if not concerned about numbers, I'd advocate getting one of the mini-high torque starters, as they would have less heat soak from more air movement around the starter, versus the original huge ones which nearly touch RA manifolds.

Piggy backing off of what unruhjonny stated; if you are not concerned with originality then the gear reduction starters are the way to go.
Holley / MSD has the DynaForce on clearance: https://www.holley.com/products/elec...rs/parts/50973
I don't need a new starter at this time, but at that price... it can sit on the shelf until needed.

oh - wow!!!

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1684949233

I could not agree more - I just bought one.

If any of you cannot see the price, it was $574, but is currently $97.

I quickly went over to Jegs to see what the competition looked like;
The cheapest one there was $182.

Thanks for that. Just ordered one. Those suckers are 500$ on Summit and good for 18-1 CR.

Just ordered one myself. At that price its a no brainer. Thanks for the tip RA66GTO!

I've tried the 5.7 diesel starter on a Pontiac, it will physically bolt to the block, but as has been mentioned the bendix pinion gear is too large to be used with the Pontiac flex plate, the diesel has a specific flexplate to change the gear ratio for the diesel to spin faster.

I thought that I had the answer to a super starter for a Pontiac, turns out the engineers changed the design enough to not allow it to fit. So I thought I could swap the gas bendix onto the diesel starter, nope, the armature shaft diameter was also increased on the diesel starter. It was a great idea, but without a ton of reworking it wasn't going to work. The diesel flywheel is also a different bolt pattern on the crank from Pontiac.

I gave up on factory starters, HD or not decades ago. They are nothing but a HUGE heat sink and being direct drive more windings still doesn't give them any better leverage. Headers coming close to any of them quickly send them to an early grave. Then you have folks running a lot more initial advance with many of these engines making them even harder to turn over fully warmed up and heat soaked.

Gear ruduction is the way to go with these things and the aftermarket makes some really nice units. A tad expensive but one of the things in this hobby that is well worth the additional cost........IMHO.....

THANKS11111
Just ordered 2 of them!

Ordered one

Ordered one

To be clear "both" Stock Delco Starters typed which can be binned as regular TQ (326-350-400) and Hi-TQ (400-428-455) whereas there are varieties of both when ya open em up.

Then there "both" Stock Solenoid types which csn be binned as regular Thrust and High-Temp, yet ya can go figure the return Spring and the Current draw has a spread of detailed application values. Heck some have the other terminal (s? ) switch post used.

Motors repair manuals show detailed specs on these starters for each engine type and HP. The 1971 manuel would cover 1965-1971, so many starter part numbers are listed.

All these starters and solenoids are rendered "low TQ" by numbbolts that paint the black case ends, and the nose, flat cap, and block mount surface. Heck even the solenoid mount flange. All thes surfaces need be paint-free to enjoy the original design performance. Especially on a hot day.

No more factory starters for this cat. Add me the the ordered club for my 17.75:1 455 :D

Ordered the MSD Dynaforce on Ebay MSD site, shipping included.

I suppose it also depends on what you're operating as to what starter you need/want.

Like most of you, over the years I have run everything from original factory starters, heat shields and wraps, Napa "Gold" Solenoids, remote solenoids, mini high torque units, etc... All with varying degrees of success around stock manifolds, factory headers and traditional headers.

This may sound almost sacrilegious, but for my daily street driven (read, largely stock) 400/428/455 powered engines, I run the AutoZone DL 3555 units.

They are listed as a "premium remanufactured unit" on the website, but whatever they are doing now during a rebuild, it's quite impressive! They spin every bit as fast and strong as my mini starters do, and they seem to last forever. I live and operate them year round in the desert heat here in Phoenix, and have yet to have a complaint.

My 72 LeMans GT 455 has had one for 20,000+ miles now with no hint of a problem. I installed another one in my 71 GTO a month ago after the (unknown) unit on the car finally died. This new one spins even faster than the last one I bought, even in our 100 degree heat these days. The 74 Bonneville has had one for a few years now, and I'm planning yet another one for my 67 428 powered wagon soon as it's original unit is on its last legs.

They look and install just like the factory starters. They've recently gone up in price due to inflation ($80 now vs $60 a couple years ago), but still seems inexpensive to me for what you get.

Another benefit for me is I can always find one in stock at one of the stores in the metro area on any given day. That's important to me as I drive the cars all the time and don't like them to sit down for any length of time. Also, should I ever have an issue, I can take it back to AZ and likely get some amount of credit toward another one. Of course I haven't had to do that yet, which is another reminder why I'm happy.

Just throwing another idea in the ring. Hope that helps someone. :)