1968 Catalina 2-door sedan 428 HO 4-speed
 

This car was for sale around 7 years ago, maybe 8. Car was in PA, prob east of Carlisle and possibly as close as metro Philly or Reading. Anyone remember this car? Anyone know what happened to it? Needed a resto.

Sounds like a pretty awesome car!

I know, right?

Diego, Inquiring minds need to know more. Do you know some of the nitty gritty details and options? That would be such a cool car and I wonder if any production numbers exsit on 428 HO 4-speed big cars, let alone Cat sedans?

Dennis

I don't remember anything else than that, other than it needed a resto. Can't remember where I saw the car but prob Hemmings.

From what I've seen at the GM Heritage Center, there are no records. Can't remember if a page was missing or that exact combo wasn't listed. I can tell you 363 Series 5200 cars had M20, though.

Thanks Diego! Dennis

I may know this car. What color was it? Fred

Diego, so the 363 cars built with M-20's could have been either 400's or 428's, so a very rare(unusual) Catalina. I imagine most of the sticks were in the sport roof 2-dr hardtops.

Dennis

1968 Engine Production Totals:

428 HO (WJ) Syncromesh = 177
428 HO (YK) Hydramatic = 318

Mike

I do have numbers for some HO stick cars, but not the Catalina sedan.

For Fred: I don't remember what color it was. I want to say blue but that's a guess. Never saw pics of it.

Mike, are these all B-bodies including GP's? (495 total HO engines in 68)

Dennis

They're for all full-size cars in 1968. However, my paperwork from the GM Heritage Center shows 453 in total (with 155 manuals), which goes against prevailing info - perhaps it's the number of engines built?

Anyway....

GP 138
Bonne 135 (105 automatics)
Catalina 173
Executive 7

Diego, so you are saying 453 HO's total installed in cars with 42 HO motors built, but not installed from Mike's numbers (453 + 42 = 495)?

Dennis

Sure, that's what I'm saying.

But I also know the source of Mike's numbers, which have been in books for years. Can't say for sure why they add up differently unless one's for the number of engines built and installed versus engines built for the parts dept.

OK, I'm good with it (lol). Dennis

not trying to hijack the thread but I have a friend with a '69 Catalina 2 dr coupe, 51K original miles, 428 rebuilt to HO like spec's, 3.42 rear end that is for sale. Lots of great features and options for the car. PM me if interested and I will put you in direct contact with him. Friend is in China - his wife works for the State Department. Car is located near Frederick MD.

blubomber, Sounds like one cool Cat (I can't help but think of Sammy Davis Jr. when I say that). 69 B-body HO's were auto only (not the new GP's). The fellow that originally ordered and raced the '71 455 HO T-37, now owned by my brother Dan, ordered a '69 Catalina 428 HO, TH400, 3.42 posi, PS/PDB, Rally II's w/WW's, Liberty Blue w/ blue cordova top and interior, gauges, etc...no a/c (which the family still has). Up until that point, he raced a '66 2+2 421 HO (which he also ordered new), TH400, 4.11 posi in NHRA D/SA, sold that to a friend, bought the Catalina, and then the T-37 to go back racing.

I'd love to hea more about the '69 of your friends.

Dennis

Dennis, I believe the 3-speed was standard for HOs in 1969.

Diego, I looks like you are correct according to the '69 Full Line brochure powertrain page. The last box 20 says 3-speed manual and TH400 for the B-bodies....weird they would offer the 3-speed (Dearborn trans w/ floor shifter?), but not the 4-speed! Box 16 is the trans offerings for the 428 HO GP which 3 & 4-speeds manuals. Another observation is the lack of the M-21 close ratio trans even with the 3.90 gears in the GP.

Looks like '68 was the last year for real fun in a big car with 4.11's and M-21 factory options.

Dennis

correct, all the 69 B cars had only two transmission options, standard equipment was a 3 speed manual sycromesh on the tree and optional was a TH400 automatic three speed on the tree. All engines including the HO were available with either trans with the following two exceptions... the NC option regular fuel 265horse-400 2 bbl and the mid year optional 340horse-400 4bbl were available only with hydramatic.

You could still order buckets (black only) in only Catalina or Bonneville two door models but no console or floor shift of any kind were offered. Note that some early factory literature incorrectly shows a 4 speed option.

Anyone ever see a 3-on-the-tree 400 4-bbl or 428/428 HO B-body? (Rhetorical question, I don't expect to get any responses...)

Dennis

The 3 on the tree wasn't available with the 400 4bbl but I have a 428-360 manual engine, which btw was in effect an HO engine less the long branch manifolds with 62 screw-in big valve heads, 067 cam, 4 bolt mains, windage tray, HO distributor and carb, none of which were on the 428-360 automatics which were basically a 428 with a 4bbl but otherwise built to 400-290 2bbl specs.

Sure about that?

'69 428 HO B body cars had a PC coded TH 400. The std unit for all others was coded PA or PB.

I do not know the exact differences but I think the HO PC units had a stronger sprag, might have had an extra clutch pack, probably had a different governor setting and different valve body shift points.

Std rear end for a 428 HO a/t B body was the 3.42:1. For some reason they listed a 3.23 for m/t cars but since they didn't make any I am not sure how accurate that is although it is probably applicable to GP's.

Dennis/SD455: PM me or better yet call me at 571 265 5950. I am leaving work in about 30 minutes and will be on my phone after that.

'69 428 HO's used several parts from the GTO bin.

7268 carb
1119 distributor
#62 heads: screw in studs, large valves, springs?
.067 cam
plus long branch manifolds

Did not know there was difference in the windage tray

To the best of my knowledge only 726 B body 428 HO's were built plus another 12xx for GP's for a total of just under 2000. That represents less than 1/2 of 1% of the total B body and G body production that year.

Diego, Now I am (lol). You really can't can't put a lot of faith in the factory printed materials.

Dennis

Blubomber, I'll pm you later, busy with running around right now. Dennis

Hey Diego you said 135 68 gp 428 how cars were built . Is that stick and auto cars. If so is there any break down of 4 speed cars. Also I have a 68 428ho 4 speed ventura with a 4.11 posi manual steering and brakes what do you think maybe 1 of 20 built like that. Thanks for the info.

The 135 is for all transmissions.

If you give me the body code and option codes you've listed, I may be able to find out something. There's some interesting combinations that are listed that one wouldn't normally expect but generally I probably will only be able to find Catalina HO/stick for you....if the page is not missing from the Archives.

SD455SJ Nothing heard..

Bump....

Sorry I forgot to get you the information what do you need the Vin code I'll try and take a picture of the Phs too

Oh the PHS would be perfect!

I'd love to see it too.....Dennis

bump

Just got the invoice from 4214speed so when I get the chance, I'll post it and any info I can gather.

Diego, Looking forward to seeing that. Dennis

Went to Carlisle, so I've been MIA. However, I took the time on the plane to restart compiling information that I started a few years ago.

I'll reply in full when I'm done in a few days, but here's some info (if it hasn't been stated yet):

173 Catalinas had the 428 HO
363 Cats had the M20, out of 2,546 with manual tranny in total (hence, the difference is the 3-speed).

I have some codes I need to translate (body and option) but it's progressing. One of the problems I have is that all the stats are from photos, and some of them are not clear. I want to make sure I don't post incorrect info or misunderstand how things are laid out.

Diego, Waiting with utmost anticipation to see what you find out.

Dennis

Cat
 

Sounds like the car I purchased from Pa. 68 Cat 2 door sedan 428 HO, close ratio 4 speed, 4:11 special order rear axle ratio, heavy duty battery, heavy duty cooling and fan, shoulder belts, bench seat, poverty caps with 15 inch wheels. Vedoro green with black cloth interior. Numbers matching. KC

Pics
 

Another shot

Another pic

Ooh!

Did you have to restore it? I know the one I saw in an ad needed a resto.

Let's say "I think it needed a resto."

68
 

It`s a running & driving car, have not restored it yet, collecting NOS parts. KC

I'm so glad to see this car!

Okay, I'm back to revisit the production numbers. I'm not done with the matrix, but I'm close. I am not sure if I am going to present anything new here (for now, won't refer to previous posts in this thread), but hopefully I will. Since we all have references from other publications or, let's say, PHS, feel free to cross-reference because it's possible there's mistakes (more below).

In 1968, 453 428 HOs were built in total. Of those, either 172 or 173 were Catalinas. I have two pages with "5200 L75" that show one number or the other. But I also have a page that shows "5200/5600 L75" adding up to 180. I cross-referenced the Executive number and I get 7, so let's go with 173 Catalinas for the sake of simplicity with the idea that factory records are never accurate or that there may be a standard rate of error especially since the hard numbers are based on percentages.

As of now, I don't have any information on the distribution among all Catalinas except convertibles - this disappoints me! However, I can tell you that 85 of the Catalina HOs were built with a manual tranny. I have no info whether any were 3-speeds (I'm skeptical but far from an expert on these cars), but I'd venture to guess most/all had the M20.

However, I do have a number of 363 for M20 Catalinas for all engines.

The docs that Joe gave me have the options listed by sales code, not UPC, so it's a bit more difficult for me to see if I have any other info to offer (I know some, like engines and AC, but not these). But most other stats I have seem to be tied to something mechanical, such as:

L78/K81
L79/V81
L79/F64
L79/F72
L79/N40
L79/M40/F40
L79/S72/M40
L79/F71
M09/M20
M12/N33/A53/A69
NC7
L79/N10
N10/K30

Sometimes the combinations may not make sense, like what was in Pontiac's interested to know how many cars were ordered with AC + PS, but that's just how things were done.

It's been a few years since I took pics of the documents. Originally they totaled over 1000, but I only took snapshots of a fraction of that. That being said, I can't recall if I managed to take pics of ALL the pages or simply focused on ones that had engine info (my spreadsheet is including A- and F-bodies). The only way I'll know for sure is when I get back to the GM Heritage Center. I make a yearly pilgrimage to MI for the Pure Stock Drags in September, but I also told myself I wouldn't make another visit till I compiled the numbers that I have. Hence, I don't think I'll be going for another year because I've had some of these docs for several years and I feel I owe it to the good folks at the GMHC to finish the current job over the greed of accumulating unpublished information.

And, of course, pages are missing from the GMHC. Were they stolen over the years? Were they misplaced? Something else? I don't know, but nothing that I've seen has been complete. In fact, some years (like 1965-66) are missing, so no dice on how many 2+2 ragtops were built (except for 1967).

For whatever reason, I've always had a fascination with production numbers, so when Fred Simmonds did his thing over 25 years ago, I thought it was fantastic - now we all could know how many Judges had RAIV! Fred's handiwork is in the GMHC's files (if you've seen his matrices over the years, you know how to recognize them!), and I know much of what I've researched has been the same references that Fred has used, but I also have seen some of Fred's stats that I haven't been able to find in the GMHC - have they gone missing since then? If you know enthusiasts in Detroit who are in the know, they may have a story about an unscrupulous person within who has stolen things just to have it. I suspect the inner geek in all of us makes honest people dishonest at times....or not.

As I've said before, I am not allowed to distribute any of the docs, but I'm allowed to divulge information. This puts pressure on me because I have to be accurate with what I reference and subsequently tell. I'm also learning that the larger the spreadsheet becomes, the more opportunity there is for me to make a mistake. With so much misinformation, old wives tales, outright lies, and what-not out there, I want to do my best to make sure I can continue Fred's hard work in a positive manner and set the record straight on so many things; for those who prefer fuzzy math or estimates that have no proper statistical bases, I hope to ruin their day. :-)

Above all, with your help, I am sure we will bear witness to improving the Pontiac hobby.

Thanks for your work, Diego!

:)

Are the sheets like the ones posted before on 71/72 production?

They had a "F.J. Gordon Manager Car Distribution" on it.

Is he still around I wonder?

:confused:

You mean like this?

No, it's a completely different document. I've attached an edited pic of what I am looking at.

Yes, your 1st pic.
(same guy too :) )

Thanks again for the work.

:)

So can anyone help me with some of the option codes listed above?

Or suggest a resource where I can find them? Not having much luck.