i just found out i may have a fake judge, & im not happy. the seller provided me PHS documentation stating judge, & its on the build sheet & can also see it on the partial paper from under seat. How can i truley tell?
Now a days a vin plate can be made, numbers can be restamped bodies can be swapped to frames.
these cars are over 30 years old & anything can happen.
ALSO is there any legal action i can take against the seller for MISREPRESENTATION.
IM PRAYING THIS IS NOT THE CASE & THE CAR IS REAL. there are too many correct parts on the car.
I NEED YOUR HELP & YOUR OPINIONS
notsosweetjudge

i just found out i may have a fake judge, & im not happy. the seller provided me PHS documentation stating judge, & its on the build sheet & can also see it on the partial paper from under seat. How can i truley tell?
Now a days a vin plate can be made, numbers can be restamped bodies can be swapped to frames.
these cars are over 30 years old & anything can happen.
ALSO is there any legal action i can take against the seller for MISREPRESENTATION.
IM PRAYING THIS IS NOT THE CASE & THE CAR IS REAL. there are too many correct parts on the car.
I NEED YOUR HELP & YOUR OPINIONS
notsosweetjudge

What makes you think that it may be a fake?

long storry short, i pissed off the seller of the blue judge, there was a lot of mis-communication betwwen him & i & my friend who i thought bought it but didnt.the seller emailed me info about another judge for sale, but didnt want a physcho like me to bother him.
i got an email from him today stating that judge was sold & was a fake.The town & the other car the person sold, match from where i bought mine.
now im not sure if hes just f`n with me & would understand, (IVE APOLIGIZED A MILLION TIMES for the crap ive caused) but this is serious now.
my car is in the readers riders judges bottom of list
WHATS YOUR OPINION?????? HOW DO I TRULEY TELL??
i own my own print & sign shop & i can reproduce anything. phs, build sheets,even the graphics & stickers are easy to replicate

I know that there is a "hidden" VIN stamped in the sheetmetal somewhere on the cowl. I've seen them on early Firebirds and have heard mention of them on this site. You may want to do a search for "hidden VIN". You should also check the frame for the VIN. Again, do a search on this site for location as I've read that may be located in several different places. Is everything else about this car numbers matching ( i.e. engine and components, tranny, rear, etc.)?

YES ALL MATCHING

thanks for that info

i'll keep my fingers crossed

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SWEETJUDGE:i own my own print & sign shop & i can reproduce anything. phs, build sheets,even the graphics & stickers are easy to replicate </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The main reason that ordering your own copy of the PHS documents is suggested when purchasing a questionable and/or expensive Pontiac is exactly the situation you are suspecting. Any PHS document can be modified and copied. If you didn't get the original microfilm printout from PHS in the paperwork from the seller, be suspicious. If you're suspicious, order your own PHS packet.

You also mention a "partial paper from under the seat." Is this an original broadcast sheet? If so, and the information on that sheet says that it's a Judge, then that is pretty irrefutable proof that it is a Judge. You can't fake original factory documents.

I know a thing or two about pontiacs and i would be willing to look at the car and your documentation. I'm in hartford. if interested, send me an email.

i will have to do that, but what about frame swapping, part swapping ect.

thank you for your input

what actually makes a real judge a real judge???
other than phs

That's about it, some words on a paper. The car could be faked by swapping the VIN. Mine could be fake. There are a bunch out there.

ALways pull your on copy of PHS. I spend the extra $ and get the fax back. I have gotten the PHS back in as little as a couple of hours.

This is more common on a 69 but my 69 Judge had the partial VIN stamped twice on the heater box. My 70 Judge convt made in Baltimore has this also. My 70 hardtop does not. This would be very diffacult to fake. The numbers are kind of pressed in.

WOW thanks for the picture.
Im not happy now ive gotta take the car apart
& its all painted fresh

This is not the best picture of it but here was the other stamping on the firewall at the heater box. The cleaned area between the holes. Yes, the numbers are stamped up-side down.

thanx for pic & info

GUYS WHO sent photos, could they be removed from this site??? i dont want to give the cloners any additional stuff to clone


FRICKEN CLONERS

Maybe Get some photos on here- might be able to help. Also send in the VIN on your own as well. Well worth the piece of mind.

I liked SWEETJUDGE's earlier question: What makes a real Judge a real Judge? I am , in fact, making a clone (sorry SWEETJUDGE). But I certainly do not intend to ever pretend it began life as one. However, before we are done there will be almost nothing original Lemans on this car. On the other hand, there are Judges that have almost nothing original Judge remaining on them either. So, does it come down a to a VIN tag? Even the cowel on our car is not original, and almost none of the sheetmetal. If a guy had an origianl Judge in the condition our Lemans is in, would it still be Judge after he replaced nearly every part? In practical terms, our "clone" will be as much a "Judge" (which is a Pontiac Lemans with options) as many original Judges.The whole thing seems a tad bit silly to a thinking man. Please don't think I am trying to be deceptive, but really, isn't a Lemans with Judge options just that, regardless of when and where those options were added? And if a guy starts with a Judge but then uses tons of parts from a Lemans parts car,is it still a Judge?

heres a liitle insite ( just my opinion so dont anyone take it too seriously). A Lemans, gto, & a judge are ALL in the same familiy, meaning they start as lemans`s, get optioned to gto`s & then top of the line or the CADILLACed to the judge.Truely PHS documentation against the WINDSHIELD VIN is the only numbers im aware of that make it a judge & only PHS can tell you that. If your lucky you might still have the paper work under the seats that say judge ,but most times there gone or destroyed.now with part swapping & mis matching truely hurts the overall value of the car. AN ALL ORIGINAL untouched car will be worth more than one restored.It still has all the correct factory parts & sheetmetal.to the hobbiest like yourself i think it doesnt mean much but the difference between lets say a mint gto & a mint judge year for year part for part, the judge could bring 30K more than just a gto. thats more than some people make in a year & thats why they are cloned. ITS ALL ABOUT THE $$$$$$$$$
NOW, im litteraly addicted to gtos i think i have a serious problem cause i want them ALL & drive myself nuts trying to wheel & deal to get what i want.Some poeple are addicted to drugs im addicted to JUDGES. IS there a rehab for that i need to check in????
My problem is this the seller sold ths car to me as a judge, i took a loss on my HARLEY to get this JUDGE knowing the value will always surpass the bike & keep goig up in value.
The Hobby unfortunately turned into INVESTMENTS.
THE rich people who used to buy property now buy up these cars, & take away from us little guys who love, adore & worship these cars.
JUST watch BARRET JACKSON, those people have more money than sense, the more they buy the farther away we will ever get to getting some of those cars. ITS A DAMN SHAME.
I truley think someone is playing a very bad joke on me like i said i have PROBLEMS now my problem is to make sure my dream car isnt a fake
SO FAR SO GOOD i still cant find any conclusion its fake.

SORRY for the long story

I can help, but first I need to confiscate your Judge, as you have to quit cold turkey! Don't worry, I'll give you TWO Harleys in return. One to ride, one to restore and keep your mind off the Judge. Give me your address and I'll be there with my trailer this week. Since you are a member of this board, there will be no charge for my services. Your welcome. Ron