A new problem just presented itself. When the engine in the GP (400) gets hot, it turns over slow when I try to start it. I remember from my hot-rodding days that a too-advanced initial timing would cause that. Timing is set @ 16 before which is the factory setting. Could this be the problem, or could it be the engine is too tight? It has about 100 miles since the rebuild.

A new problem just presented itself. When the engine in the GP (400) gets hot, it turns over slow when I try to start it. I remember from my hot-rodding days that a too-advanced initial timing would cause that. Timing is set @ 16 before which is the factory setting. Could this be the problem, or could it be the engine is too tight? It has about 100 miles since the rebuild.

Is it rebuilt to stock spec's? If you've increased the compression you may need to drop the initial timing back a point or two. Does it have the factory exhaust manifolds? If you've changed something there the starter may be getting hot causing a slow cranking issue. And the starter may just be getting tired. Good luck.

3 possibilities:

1. Starter is mounted to a painted block pad. Overall starter case assy, GND path & wiring experiencing a resistive path.

2. Duh yea, internal slug-wall friction gone high when warm...put a torque wrench onto the harmonic balancer, or

if your "feeling lucky" grab the balancer pulley by hand and see if you can turn the assy by hand cold, then hot. I do this on my assys (takes grip, concentration and technique ( I pull the Left-side V-belt too, push the right side down)

3. Bearing damage in crank,cam, maybe rods.

take your pick...I had #3 occur because I puts STD bearings on a .010 crank...you'd never dooo thaaat right. http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...on_redface.gif

Thanks for the replies!

OK, engine was rebuilt to stock. Not by me but by a reputable machine shop. I hope it's not that!

I like the "starter bolted to a painted block" scenario because that's what I did. It didn't even occur to me that the return path is the block! lol I'll give that a try!

This is way common deal with Ponchos. You can try backing off the timing, but it is probably due more to the hot start situation. Does the car still start, but cranks slower?
All the internal engine tolerances are working at an optimal condition (provided the engine rebuild was done properly). However, when the engine is turned off it will "heat soak". Parts that are being cooled by circulating coolant are suddenly just sittng there hot without freshly cooled coolant. Mostly, the pistons expand and get tighter in the cylinder bores so it is harder to turn when hot. As the engine breaks in it may crank somewhat faster when hot, but the basic heat load situation will create a tighter fit. If the engine sits for a longer period of time (an hour or so) I bet that it cranks relatively faster?? If the timing was too advanced you would have a crank condition cold too.

I had the same problem on my 400. I wrapped the starter with a heat blanket, and ran an extra ground. I think most of the problem on mine was the starter getting hot, especially with headers.

Hi,
My new 462 with stock log exhaust manifolds does the same thing. Turn the key and the starter barely turns. Eventually it turns over and the engine starts. My initial timing is set at 12* BTDC. The starter was a new rebuilt.
Mike

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gtoformula:
Does the car still start, but cranks slower?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, it started but I could tell the starter was laboring to turn the engine over. Maybe after some break-in mileage it will loosen up!

I was just reading an article on this on the MAD electrical site last night. They claim it's caused by the starter wiring getting too hot and they have a differant setup you can use...

http://www.madelectrical.com/catalog/st-1.shtml

You can probably get these parts on your own, but their site really has some good info.

In normal operation, the pistons are much hotter than the cylinder walls.

When you shut off the engine, the heat will transfer from the pistons (making them smaller) into the cylinder walls (making them bigger) This would result in MORE clearance, not less.

The idea that an engine (as opposed to a starter motor) will heat soak and get HARDER to crank is nonsense. Even the oil is thinner, resulting in less load on the starter.

The problem is in the starter, the battery, the cables/connections, or some combination of starter, battery, and cables. If it cranks good when cold, you can "probably" rule out the cables 'n' connections.

First guess: Hot starter windings increases the resistance making the starter less powerful.

Second guess: The battery is too small, or worn out.

I had a starter made from a hd chebbie unit with a Pontiac nose cone and added a heat blanket, much better.
The initial problem I had was the timing getting set right. There wasn't too much room with the TI intake and hei.
I temporarily had a switch in the ignition that cut off the ignition while cranking to let the engine to crank at a faster speed without fighting the hot pistons/cylinder walls that worked also.
Get the biggest cables possible that will fit helps also.

How "HOT" is hot? http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...n_confused.gif

Schurkey: First guess: Hot starter windings increases the resistance making the starter less powerful.

Second guess: The battery is too small, or worn out.

Good guesses. In my case, switching from a cheap 550amp/hr battery to a red-top optima solved my hot start ( engine ops of &lt; 15 min. ) problem...though I did upgrade the pos and gnd wires, they alone didn't solve the problem.

Never could get past the logic of a heat shield: It would seem it would just delay the amount of runtime to heat-soak the starter; Once the shield becomes hot, wouldn't it too become a heat source to the starter ( and a closer in one at that )?

the heat shield should act as a good heat conductor. It's function should be to transfer the heat of the starter to the air, and not solely to absorb it... that's why its a thin piece of metal and not a large cast iron block.

The battery is brand new so it's not that.

Someone asked "How hot is hot?" About 180. Never seen it go higher.

I have a digital voltmeter that I'll connect at the starter. If there is a voltage drop because of a bad connection or ground return, I'll find it.

I didn't realize that this was such a common problem with ponchos! Hey, does anyone want to talk about my leaking rear main seal with only 100 miles after rebuild? )^$*#)@*$^#&$%#@(!!)#(&%! lol

I had the same problem when I installed a 68 340 hp 400 in my 74 ta. I have a simple easy fix that works and you don't have to change starter, timing ect. Remove the hot lead that goes to your + on the dist. Get a high amp toggel switch and wire the same diameter as the lead. Then cut the connector end that plugs into the dist. cap about 1.5 inches from the end. Then all you do is solder the wire and switch in line with 1 end going to the hot lead and the other soldered to the connector. Before you start cranking the engine, put the switch in the off position. After the engine is spinning, flick the switch to on. When you try to start any engine, you are cranking it against cylinders trying to fire.. With the switch off, nothing is firing and concequently, spins much easier... It'll cost you about $7.00 and it will work on a stock 400 or a prety high compression 455 .. Simple, easy and you don't have to change anything. Don't believe me? Next time you're trying to crank your 400 hot, remove the hot lead to the dist and see just how easy it spins ... Now send me 20.00 ;o) !!

You say the battery is "brand new". Just make sure it has the proper cranking power. I wouldnt use anything under 650 cca. If you can, get yourself a 850 or 1000 if possible.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Now send me 20.00 ;o) !! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Checks in the mail! http://forums.performanceyears.com/g...icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ryche:
You say the battery is "brand new". Just make sure it has the proper cranking power. I wouldnt use anything under 650 cca. If you can, get yourself a 850 or 1000 if possible. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

this _first step_ gets my vote everytime