400 Build on a budget???
 

First of all, I gotta say hi to everybody here, this being my first post in this forum and all...
so yeah, hi.

I'm a college student AKA Broke, and I'm building a WS code 68 400 for my 68 GTO/Lemans. I haven't started anything yet, other than purchasing the short block. My plan is to get all the pieces together, then tear it down completely and get the machine work done.
My goal with this build is to run pump gas (most likely 92 octane), and push 400 hp and 400 ft lb...

Here is my quick list of what I was thinking. Edelbrock 700 cfm vaccuum sec carb, edelbrock RPM Performer air gap intake, RPM cam Edelbrock, stock crank (turned), stock rods (cleaned and re finished), and I would like to reuse the stock oil pan, Upgraded HEI ignition (MSD when I have the $$$) and plugs, wires.
As you probably noticed, I don't have heads, or pistons. I would love to keep my stock pistons as well. So, in order to run a good 9.0:1 CR, i would need heads (big valved) with a 75-80 cc Chamber, correct?
Any recommendations? Thoughts? Comments?
Im open for opinions, even a larger chamber, if it will still get me around where I want to be, powerwise.

Brandon,
But my friends call me BIRDMAN

For 400 HP, ditch the stock rods and cast slugs. You'll spend just as much getting those stock cast rods reworked as a set of better forged rods. Cast pistons at 400 HP and live? UH UH. Use a set of TRW flattop forgings, speedpro moly rings and a set of 6X-4 heads cut 030. Have the heads ported 240/190 CFM if you can afford it. If you've gotta keep cost down, don't skimp on the bottom end at that HP level. You can always put better heads on later. Good rods, pistons, machine work, fasteners and oiling system is a must. Dont forget the little things like 3/4 groove mains, hardened oil pump driveshaft and blueprint the oil pump. Use the XE274 or a Crower cam. Use a well-tuned Q-jet, its better on the street than a holley. RPM is a good intake, pair it with a set of 1-3/4" headers and 2.5" exhaust.

have fun

chip

Any recommendations for parts shops?
Online; Jegs, Summit... etc...
or should I keep it local and try to get a discount at my favorite shop?
the only other engine I've built was pretty basic and we used most of the stock equip, other than heads...

Welcome to the forum !
Good suggestions Chiphead on this type of build I'd say...
Don't forget to refer to Jim Hand's book for tips and tricks and using as many factory parts and his tips as you can! Good rods, pistons, machine work and block prep are obviously a must. Sometimes you can find nice prices on perfectly good used parts too, sometimes offered for sale on this board.

Good luck with that 68, post some pics ! :cool:

Brandon, sent you a PM.
Michael

If you're truly on a budget, you can certainly get away with reusing the stock rods at this performance level, but it may be false economy.

To make sure that a set of stock rods will live in a 400 horse engine, you will need to have them magnafluxed, resized, and install ARP rod bolts in them at a minimum. Of course, if one fails magnaflux or if the small ends have gone out of round (it happens) then you incur the additional cost of finding another rod(s).

Add up the cost of doing that vs. the cost of a quality set of forged rods, such as the new Tomahawk rods offered by Ace at PPR or a set of Scat or CAT rods. The price difference won't be more than about $100 and that's cheap for peace of mind.

As for reusing stock pistons, I'd be very surprised if you could get away with doing that. It's likely the bores in your block will need at the very minimum a hone job to restore them to roundness which will increase the clearances on those pistons by .003" or more. With all that extra clearance the pistons will rock around and bang around in the bores a lot more than a cast piston should, likely leading to failure. Just suck it up and buy a set of TRW forged .030" oversized pistons.

As mentioned, spend the money on a good short block and skimp on the heads for now. You can always replace the heads later much more easily than dealing with a blown shortblock. A good set of large valve stock heads at 9 or 9.5:1 compression will get you in the 400 horse ballpark anyway, with only a good quality valvejob on them.

6X-4 or 5C-4 are good castings to look for. Also the '69 #62 heads seem to have larger chambers than a lot of the other big valve heads rated at 10.5:1 CR. In other words, they usually come in well below their rated CR. If you can find a set of #62s that have 78cc or larger chambers in them you're in business.

Another option is to find a set of 2bbl heads from a late '60s 400 or early '70s 350. You will need to have them converted to screw-in studs and have the seats cut for larger valves but these heads (like '70 #11 castings or '69 #46 castings) have good chamber sizes for what you want to do and you can usually pick them up cheap enough to offset the cost of converting to screw in studs.

Once the engine's together, install a Crower 60242 or 60916 cam and enjoy the power!

Also, I'd recommend against the Edelbrock carb and most definitely against the Edelbrock RPM cam. I've never seen an Edelbrock carb that made as much power or got as good of mileage as a well built Q-jet and the RPM cam is simply too much cam. Don't go over about 224 @ .050" duration or you'll be unhappy with the results.

An excellent budget cam for your buildup would be the Summit 2802, though I like the Crower cam better.

As for pricing on parts. I haven't found a more reasonable vender than SD Performance. They are just north of you in Canada. Dave is a premiere Pontiac engine builder and supports the Pontiac hobby 110%.

Thats what Ive heard. Ill take one of these days off from work and go talk to him...
What do you guys think my chances are of finding some of the stuff I need on here???
like heads, rods, cam, oil pan, basically everything but the block...

Ummm, are you talking about buying a used cam? And what rods? If buying new, look into the ones from Ace at PPR as mentioned, or look at Summit/Jegs for the CAT or Scat offerings or go through Dave at SD Performance as mentioned. He's a helluva guy and can probably set you up with everything you need for a very fair price.

Oil pans and other tin are generally easy to find.

Where in Washington are you? If not too far from Seattle, I can probably hook you up with a set of small valve heads for cheap, and I probably have a useable oil pan and some valve covers, a windage tray and possibly some other things you may need laying around here.

wow! since we are having a western washington love fest, LET ME IN!!!

i live in mt vernon. i have just picked up my 400 from the machine shop. i got a 67 400 given to me and it didn't need any boring as it was recently rebuilt before it was parked over 20 years ago. i am reusing the .030 over pistons and bearings. need new rings. i am also using the stock rods with ARP bolts. if you look at the engine combos in the back of jim hands book you will see SEVERAL engine builders using stock rods with arp bolts. it only cost me $80 for the bolts and about that to have the rods resized. i did not have them magnafluxed. i don't think 400hp is very much hp to worry about. you will have to see what your block needs. you may have no choice other than to bore it out. sd performance is my next stop as well to have them port and re do my 061 heads or just give them to them in trade for some already done. i too am talking to them about cam choice. 400 hp sounds about right for me too. i dont want to get too carried away with the stock rods and crank because i have a 455 waiting in the wings. i want to get new rods from sd or from kens's (pdude) with his pistons. but since i dropped $500 so far w/o rings and gaskets, it will be a LITTLE BIT longer till that 455 gets looked at. you will see alot of cam choices in the back of hands book but you need to get your gearing and veh. wgt figured out and sd will be the guys to talk to

I have a set of 1970 #11 heads I might part with