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CPP 4-wheel power disc brake conv.
Well, after owning a 68 Firebird for the past 10 years and then having it wrecked this past Dec. 12 by an illegal alien, ooops, I mean undocumented visitor. I parted the car out and have now purchased my first "A" body, a 67 LeMans w/54k orig miles. I must say moving into a larger Pontiac was the best thing I could have done, as I am 6'-2" and go 280lbs. With all of this being said, the first thing I noticed with the LeMans was just how scary drum brakes can be on a larger car. I had them on the Bird, but had completely rebuilt them years ago and they worked very well.
Anyway, I am currently losing my vision and only have a short time left before I will loose my license. So, I am trying to get the car safe as can be, knowing my wife will eventually be driving the car to car shows etc. that we will attend. With this in mind the first thing I had to do was address the horrendous braking issues with the LeMans. Opposed to rebuild the original drum brakes I opted for a complete 4-wheel power disc brake system offered by CPP (Classic Performance Parts Inc. from CA). I found their system on Ebay and was really shocked to see it listed with a $775 starting price. I placed a bid and to my surprize I won the 4-wheel disc system at the $775 price plus $75 shipping. Well, after about 15 days, they finally shipped the parts. I was a bit ticked about the two week delay (this was AFTER I paid via PayPal). However, all the parts arrived and then I had a delay before we could start the install. Then, last Monday we started the install and things went fairly well as we had a few other projects come along on another car that we were trying to get ready for a car show. After removing the entire old braking system we began to install the new system. Right off the batt we found that all of the ball joints were the original along with the springs, shocks etc. So we detoured and rebuilt the entire front end. The biggest concern I had was whether or not their disc brake system would fit my non original (repop) Pontiac Rally I rims which I had just installed a brand new set of Diamondback red line tires so there was no turning back and switching to 15"s. Once we got the spindles installed with the new springs we were able to mount the calipers and test the 14" Rally I's and YES, they fit. I will say though, they BARELY clear! Well, now it was on to the rears. Much like the front we soon discovered that the rearend had all of it's original bearings and off we went to get all new bearings. Having to pull the axles we certainly could not put them back in without replacing all the bearings, so this set us back yet again. Once we had the old bearings cut off the axles and the new bearings pressed on, we continued on with the install. By now we were 4 days into the project and finally able to test fit the rear wheels to ensure that they too would clear the new disc brakes. Well, sure enough, as close as the fronts were, the backs we even closer yet and required grinding a c-hair off the caliper brackets. This was no problem as the brackets had more than enough meat on them and actually could have been made with the same radious as the caliper and all would have been fine. Now, one word of advise (which is why I am posting this info in the event anyone is considering a 4-wheel disc conv.) would be to purchase a complete pre-bent brake line kit that goes with the exact system you are installing. All of the existing brake lines did in fact have to be cut back, re-bent, new ends etc. So we opted to buy the correct size tubing and bend all of our own new lines. Again, had I known, I would have purchased the entire pre-bent line kit directly from CPP and this would have saved us a TON of time. As for the completeness of the "kit", there were a few issues. First, they do include 10 new lug studs for your axles as the new rotors are thicker than the old drums. The problem was, they sent be 9 correct studs and one that was WAY TOO BIG. Now I realize, this was a simple mistake on someone's part, but nonetheless it is aggravating to have to wait for another or to go and have to try and find one to buy etc. In addition to the lug stud mix up I did run into another issue with the E-brake cables (the ones that were already on the car). The issue is this, the inside part of the cable that has the keeper end on it, is long enough to reach the new E-brake lever on the new calipers, however, the outer part of the cable is too short and does not reach the part of the bracket that would hold the outter sheild of the cable. I called CPP's tech support and was told that I needed E-brake extenders which they are in fact shipping to me free of charge. However, I now have to wait for them along with the other lug stud. I am now at the point of the install where everything is mounted, all new lines run and everything is connected and the entire system has been bled out about a million times. The front brakes are working perfectly however, the rears are barely moving. I called their tech support and was told that because the E-brakes are not hooked up that the rears will not close enough to stop the rotor. Personally, I think this is total BS as the caliper does not care if the E-brake cable is attached or not. After spending two hours on CPP's web site in the trouble shooting section I stumbled on to a PDF file under "misc" section and what I found is a page that tells you that their distribution blocks are capable of either disc/disc or disc/drum applications, however, if you are using this on a disc/disc system, you have to "remove a rubber piston from the isolation valve for 4-wheel disc brakes". The car is over my friend's house on his lift so I have not been able to check and see if this rubber piston is in fact inside the dist. block or not. This will be the first thing I will try tomorrow morning and I am hoping this will solve the problem. If it does, than the fact that this company a) did not have ANYTHING in their instructions about this and b) their tech support knows nothing about this rubber piston situation and c) they could easily put a simple sticker on the side of the distribution block/valve. I'll follow this thread until the end and will post more pics as well. So far, the product seems decent and the fit is good. The packing error, shipping delay, lack of E-brake extenders and the "tech support" all could use some improvement. Tech support pretty much gives you the hurry up and get off the phone scenario ie: as soon as I mentioned that I did not have the E-brake cable connected, the guy immediately tells me, "this is definately your problem" before I even finished telling him my problem. Oh well, hopefully the E-brake extenders will arrive tomorrow and we get this project completed and we can move on to installing my brand new 400 and a 4-speed conversion! http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c9...2-16-10002.jpg http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c9...2-16-10005.jpg http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c9...3-07-10001.jpg http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c9...07-10016-1.jpg http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c9...3-07-10014.jpg http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c9...3-07-10010.jpg http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c9...3-07-10006.jpg http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c9...3-07-10008.jpg |
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So, how did CPP solve the axle bearing preload issue? |
Well, I hope you are right. I also hope the E-brake extenders show up tomorrow. Why they wouldn't include them is beyond me. I am sure all "A" body installs would be in the same boat.
As for the axle bearing question, I have no idea what you are talking about. Keep in mind I am no mechanic and never claimed to be one... |
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First, I appreciate your help here as I see you also sell conversion kits. I'll be sure to keep this in mind as the friend who is helping me owns 14 classic cars, 7 Vettes and 7 Pontiacs and he is looking to convert his cars as well at some point. He is 65 years old and has been playing with cars his entire life, litterally. I will mention this to him as I am guessing he may be aware of this as I do know that we did install the old thin metal shims that were on the car originally. I am not sure if these are what you are referring too or not.
Are you familiar with CPP's dist. block that they include in their kits? I found on their website where they mention removing a "rubber piston" for 4-wheel apps. I am not sure if they would have already done this knowing it was for a 4-wheel conv. etc. Again, thank you for the info I think it's quite nice of you considering you also sell such products and I will be sure to keep this in mind when telling everyone about my experience etc. |
Depending on the thickness, the stock drum backing plate is 12 gauge. I am not familiar with CPP's combination valve.
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Update: Thanks to Scarebird, we went back and double checked our install of the axles and found that there is in fact supposed to be a special spacer/shim for a BOP installation. Due to the fact that we did not have the E-brake extenders we had not gotten to a point where we would have run into trouble by not having them.
The issue here is that this has caused yet another set back/delay. The good news is, CPP has stepped up and offered to overnight ALL of the missing parts, BOP spacers, missing lug stud & E-brake extenders. This is good news as we had already missed one Pontiac show this past w/e in Jacksonville, FL due to the missing parts and did not want to miss the spring show this coming w/e at Daytona Speedway. We should be able to finish this entire project tomorrow providing the parts arrive promised. Then, after this w/e show the brand new 400 swap will begin next Monday along with a complete 4-speed conversion. I have several pics to upload for this 4-wheel disc conversion as I know there are a few people waiting to see the end result. I have high hopes that this kit will be worth the few setbacks that have popped up. The old drums we so unsafe, I was affraid to drive the car as much as I would like to. We bought the car just over two months ago with 54k original miles and have already put 4k miles on the car. We have a VERY busy show season ahead once the car is completed. We will be attending the Woodward Dream Cruise, Ames Performance Nationals and a few other larger events as well. |
as a fellow lemans guy (66) nice car and a smart move I did the praise dyno muscle car stage 3 kit upgraded the drums what a mistake live and learn thats why im reading your post have a nice day
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Missing parts did in fact arrive today via next day UPS. Thank you CPP. We were only able to spend a couple of hours on the install today once the parts arrived. Was able to get the E-brakes hooked up, adjusted and working perfectly. However, still not getting rear brakes. However, we beleive we found the problem but ran out of time and unfortunately, we are unable to resume tomorrow due to other obligations. I am at the mercy of my friend as it is his lift and I have had it tied up for well over a week now and that is not cool...
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Thats what friends are for. You getting advertisement dollars for for that big Q on your
chest LOL Fellow low voltage guy and a lemans (not turned into a gto clone) guy |
Big Q? I don't get it...
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DONE! Up and running and WOW, what results. After ironing out several kinks and a few more calls to CPP's tech support we fianlly resolved the last issue. Turned out that the proportioning valve had to be "reset". Would have been nice if this had been included in their instructions and or troubleshooting section on their website. I guess maybe it is there but I sure didn't see it.
All in all, I have several suggestions for them and for anyone who might install such a kit. There were several issues that could have been avoided if the info would have been available from the begining. All in all, the end results are outstanding. By far the greatest upgrade one can make to a classic car IMO! More pics to come... |
...well, if they won't listen I will - saves me grief on the phone and in emails.
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More pics of hood tach install and 4-wheel power disc brake install. We drove the car all weekend back and forth to Daytona Speedway for the Spring car show & swap meet. I live about 40 mins from the track so this was a great way to break in the new brakes!
Still have some detail work to do. Have to paint the M/C, front calipers, get a correct line for the vacuum to the booster etc. Went to BelAir Plaza Friday and Saturday night, had a gentleman with CASH in hand make me a crazy offer, 23K CASH! LOL If I had wanted to sell the car, could have done so a few times over the w/e. She isn't going anywhere! http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c9...install017.jpg http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c9...install018.jpg http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c9...install019.jpg http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c9...install020.jpg http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c9...install021.jpg http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c9...install022.jpg |
Very nice. :)
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Been following along. Looks GREAT! I'm planning a front drum to disc on mine soon. Still have to get it running first, though.
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It's been a couple of weeks now and a couple of thousand miles and all is well. Pulled the wheels to check everything, had a high spot on the rear calipers that was just barely touching the rims, took a grinder to it and bingo, no more rubbing. So all in all I am very pleased with the end results...
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hello im doing this to my 68 firebird do i have to take spring out first to put the spindle in and my ball joint turns while in trying to put nut on can u please help methanks
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