early forged rods
 

I started a thread on cast rods that went in unintended directions.So this thread is not on should you play with old forged rods(maybe not)but what happens when you do.Since I have had a stack of them hanging arround I decided to get a set hardened.The guy said he would do one with a batch of other stuff to try and see what happened. According to theory 58-62 rods will heat treat to 32 rockwell from about stock 17-18 and up to 40 rockwell vacuum heat treatment.So we tried too vacuum heat treat one and it went to the grand total of 18 rockwell.It may be that not all 58-60 rods are 1140 some may be near mild steel.Any way rod with bushing is 55-57 said to be about 1137 rockwell about 10-12 other rod is 58-62 1140 rockwell about 15-18.last rod is after unsuccessful heat treating.Very disappointing I wont be doing the rest.Epic fail but at least a cheap failure.

I contacted an engineering company and they said they could do it but they needed a rod to analyze and thus ruin before they proceeded and since I only have eight I said never mind. The early 'rubber rods' are fine for a milder build, like a 350 that gets a factory cam and won't see 5000.

Yes an analyze would be interesting but not worth it I guess.I have ten more it would probably be cheaper to heat treat them and see what happens($110au).It was just because I had them and like playing around.At the price of the new rods I would not bother to do it in the states.

Any Cryo treating places around that you could give it shot with that process?

Shoot GTOfreek / Paul Carter a PM for info on this as he does Cryo treating

Not sure of Barney Moravitz in San Antonio is still around.Had a machine shop there. He used to have a company that did oil field machinery do them for him. Got decent Rockwell on a set I had done when they were checked, and I think he did the ones Butler used back in the day.

He might know how they did them.

The same place does cryo and said while it would help they would still be be too soft.Skip fix I am interested in how they succeeded but suspect some were made of a lower grade steel because vacuum hardening should be as good as it gets.As people have been doing this for years and succeeding it might be that the one rod was an inferior steel.I am tempted to get them to do the rest to see what happens.

The early 59-61 forged rods have a chance to be heat treated with the right person doing it. Butler had a guy many years ago who could bring them up to the high 20s/low 30-31 range. Never to 421 SD numbers. The guy eventually passed. RIP.

The 'Rubber Rods' ~61 to 63+ vintage are softer than the cast iron rods and will waste your money even trying to heat treat them. Even the poorest Chinese rods will typically test out better than the rubber rod stuff but the rubber rods had at least minimal clean steel.

Cast rods are great, as is any "hard material" rod is, (until they fracture).

Tom V.

GM played that game with other manufacturers also.

Oldsmobile steel rods have no deliberate heat-treatment also. As you might expect, Olds guys complain about "Rubber Rods".

I'm fairly certain that the forged rods in '67-up Buick big-blocks aren't heat-treated, but I haven't got proof right now. Buick small-block rods are cast like Pontiac and Cadillac.

It does not matter too much as I held no high hopes but I remain surprised that it didn't work at all.As you said tom their were those that managed to do it.Schurkey if they are rockwell tested (very cheap test)and they are under 20 rockwell I would say you are correct. Well at least it was a learning experience.

rods
 

Are the '56 rods any better? I am building a '56 mild street engine and would like to know if the original rods are going to be OK. Thanks, Billk

Barney of San Antonio is in business. I don't know his last name but he has a shop on Mission and I bought a 455 block from a guy there.

I have 8, 1970 Pontiac Armasteel rods but decided not to use them because I don't know their history and how much life is left in them. I am doing a new 455 build so I want strong rods and don't want to worry about the strength of the Armasteel rods therefore I am going forged rods.

I wish I knew the factory ratings of Armasteel rods from a rpm and hp stand point but haven't been able to find any.

bt

Engine Built By: Barney Moravitz at T&P Machine, San Antonio, Texas

Barney M should be a really old guy and probably does not do any work today.
That address was mentioned in an article written in 2012.

Barney taught Jim Butler a lot in the old, old days so maybe he would still be a good source for info though.

Tom V.

beertracker this info is from HO racing I hope it loads ok.Thanks tom for the name I will try and do something with it.

I think Barney and Jim did the heat treated early rods BEFORE Eagle came on the scene. They also had a lighter pin they both sold that was about 0.0005 bigger that needed fitting to use. Barney and his brother both raced S or SS in the 80s-90s. He's probably late 70s now-didn't believe in torque plates for Pontiac either.

The set of rods he did for me back then he sent them back to me done with a bill. How many shops would do that and not pay up front to a first time customer? I dropped them off on the way to South Texas for a "deer hunt"-buddy had a Class 3 machine gun license so we played and killed cactus not deer:)

Flat bill if you look at the HO info you should be good to 6828 rpm.The 55-57 rods are made of a lesser grade of steel but the rockwell is about the same and they are floating.Yeh I think we are on a evolutionary dead end on these rods as the chinese stuff works for the price.Thanks guys for an educational thread.

a drawing on those 58-62 rods was in Pete McCarthy's book. If the drawing is correct, the rods were made of SAE 1139 steel. Its a free machining steel (sulphur added) with limited hardenability. Its interesting to see the limited surface hardness you got with them. Somebody might be able to get higher surface hardness, but probably the hardness wont go very deep.

You are right I did not see that.That contradicts page three and the Ho book.The plot thickens.It would explain my failure but not other peoples success.The education continues.Thanks.

The only thing the HO racing chart does not take into account is how fast the motor in question rev's up!
With a car with race gearing , 4500 stall converter , or even more punishing then that a shot of NO2 you had better knock 300 to 400 rpm off of those rpm limits to maintain the same stated 2.1 safty ratio for long term usage!!!

The connecting rods are a pretty highly stressed item in the assembly. For Pontiac engines they have thick cross section, long, and heavy. The rods are a combination of spinning and reciprocating weight and the pistons hanging on the ends of them have to stop and change direction at TDC and BDC for every crankshaft revolution.

It amazes me the factory cast rods last more than a few seconds in a 455 on a drag strip run shifting at 5500rpm's, but they actually hold up pretty well.

The introduction of the low cost Eagle (and Eagle knock-offs/clone) "H" beam rods pretty much obsoleted any factory offerings, even the better Super Duty rods.

They "H" beams are light, strong, and nice features like 7/16" ARP cap screws, and full floating capabilities. We have had perfect success with them at any power level, even the less expensive "knock-offs" that look like Eagle rods but come in no-name boxes and no markings on them.

One also has to consider that even if you have the better factory forged rods, or even early versions that can be hardened, the time/expense put into them still doesn't come up with a rod any better than, if as good as a low cost currently available "H" beam rod.

I've seen folks attempt to harden and use early forged rods with DISASTEROUS results, so for serious power levels I would avoid them completely.....FWIW......Cliff

I would have to agree about the cast rod 455s .Our home brewed shifter on our FE rail allowed us to go into neutral on one run and instead of 5200rpm the tack said over 5900rpm.Since one cast piston had the side welded and the rods had stock bolts we could not believe it survived.The chinese rods look better all the time.