fake vin!!.. 1970 GTO 455 ram air conv. 4 sp. I sold 11 years ago
 

Well, I was notified that this car that I restored to #1 ( posted earlier here , BAJA GOLD 1970 GTO ram air 455 conv. 4 speed..1 of 3)) I bought this basket case which did NOT have a matching engine vin # ( blank, no vin#) and then sold it to a guy when completed, he sold it and advertised it as NON matching (blank) also it is now on BAT with a matching block # vin!..??!..HMMM..Something happened from when I bought it and after I sold it , ...just your thoughts..I've talked to a heavy there at bat and am trying to figure out how this happened. I lost $ because I adv. it as non matching.. someone is now trying to make a possible + 20%?? ..more BY HAVING IT MATCHING. Kind of sucks.. a picture of the "new block vin#" is on the bat site. Please check it out.. Thanx!... Forrest

FYI just a thought maybe the block come up for sale at one point, not nice to jump to the dark side without knowing all the facts just my opinion ! But I've seen it happen.

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If you've reported it to Bring A Trailer, there's not much more than you can do. I suppose you could also put a comment in the auction itself, but that may complicate things.
edit: How were you able to determine it's a 1 of 3 car? Did PHS provide that information?

I had a 74 SD455 block that went with a early 74 4spd car .I new about, tried to buy car 40 yrs ago. Any way guy called me about something else i said i have that block ,you what! Yes. We made a deal.it can happen. Car is almost done

It is possible that the current owner of the car did a lot of research and tracked down the
people who owned the "basket case" before you got it. Then he researched where the block went over the years when the engine was not installed in the car.

So I would say that the current owner did his homework and now the engine is back with the car.

Tom V.

http://https://bringatrailer.com/wp-...size=620%2C413This might not mean much, but,

There are "tell tale" sign

]https://bringatrailer.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/1970_pontiac_gto-ram-air-455-4-speed-convertible_a416b5f1-9bb0-438a-853c-a8c63f326d16_1_201_a-88098.jpeg?w=620&resize=620%2C413[/IMG]

I can't get the picture to link of the pitting above the stamping




Would think if it is the same block with no Vin that you installed, that the same pitting pattern would be evident above the number.

Is it? If so that is not a good sign for the current seller.
No pitting maybe they actually found the original block.

Any other engine pics that can be compared?

Pic:


https://bringatrailer.com/wp-content...size=620%2C413


:)

Crazier things have happened. Unless you have definitive proof I would not open a can of worms on the bat listing, who knows what kind of liability you will be subject to. So the guy is selling for 20% more than what you got. Thats what happens when cars are sold. Once the car changes hands its someone elses problem/profit. If the new buyer finds its deceptive after he gets then then thats his problem, Buyer Beware! I would be willing to bet that this is not the first nor the last car that will be sold with something hinky going on.

You sold the car and had control of the price and details. Did you get what you wanted for it? I say let it go.

You could just comment on the auction that you did the restoration and at that time the block vin was blank. And now see that the original engine block must have been found and reunited with the car. Let everyone draw their own conclusions.

I see the auction says the engine is "numbers matching" which I think means faked is more or less OK. It doesn't claim to be original.

Do you remember the casting date of the engine when you restored it? If it's the same then it was stamped.

Just a story about "numbers matching". My dad restored a 1966 427/425hp Corvette convertible. He placed an ad in hemmings looking for a correct date coded block. He found one in Cincinnati and it was 6 cars off from his. The two cars were literally on the line the same day so the casting date matched perfectly and no my dad did not restamp the block.

Did you contact the seller and give him a chance to explain?

If you're not 'Mid_60s_fan' (guessing you are forrest3), I would piggy back on his/her comment that was just posted. If you are, I think it would be a valid follow-up question based on his response, if worded correctly/non-threatening. Wouldn't want to impact the auction result if it's legit, but also wouldn't want an unknowing buyer to purchase without knowing the full details.

I believe the seller is highly regarded and has auctioned off many high-end vehicles, so anything is possible.



May 13 at 1:08 PM

Mid_60s_fan

I’ve learned through high end collector car dealers and experiences that phrases like “date code correct” “born with” factory correct” and “numbers matching” all have various meanings to different buyers and enthusiast. Do I understand correctly this beautiful GTO has the engine that was installed at the factory assembly line? Thanks, super car indeed.

Thanx guys!..I understand the "found block" scenario.. I think this happened with another '70 GTO 455 ram air convertible pepper green I did that went to Austria!.( remember RANSOM, Tom John, thanx for your help & opinions also!)?. Anyway, I sold this GOLD one to a guy in cal. in 2012 he sold it in 2014.. so far no one has any info ( 2 previous owners since the sell in Cal. so far)..Not to mention the trans was NOT matching either, Not a big deal just frustrating that no one is "coughing" up the truth so far.. so be it.. I have done ALOT of these rare GTO's LOTS of hard work....mostly matching.#'s,. took a loss on a couple because of non matching..Just hope for some more info and how it happened!// LOL.. ..Not killing myself anymore..65 years old and I just cannot work like I was 30!..LOL..This forum is a GODSEND for many it has helped me and I hope I have helped others when I was really active hear..Thanx again for all the thoughts! I'll be selling lots of 70-72 parts soon FYI!.. Just have one more to do before I focus on "taking it slow and easy!"..THANX...Oh, and that's 1 of 3 "FOUR 4 speed" 455 ram air converts. from what I understood from here and others known to STILL exist..

You have a question on that site.

Thanx.. I responded..!

No issue here for me. Dam. Go figure like i did that Stamped Carb, Starter, dizzy, Block are all possible from non-specific Production Castings.

So, i figured longk ago not to put my emotions into Stamp-matching Engine/Trans/Rear. Who really cares about Stampings when there are Stamp kits that can change the value. I don't care to play that game. Just boring.

Oh sure, i sold some rather rare stuff that had all numbers matching ( for real), and some other rare stuff where the Buyer could make it numbers-matching because of the junk i chose to include in the rebuild.

Still have a couple unstamped Hi-TQ Starters that could be stamped into SD, RA-V, RA-Iv, 428 HO. And, I think there are about a million such cores still out there.

If a fella takes a proper block and mills the face (properly) then stamps the correct information correctly, then put that Side-by-Side to the Original Block. YOU have a problem with theory, but in reality those two Blocks are....identical except for condition.

Casted Identity seems to be trustworthy, yet there are those making cast identities with epoxy. Again Boring.

Just sold for $110,000!

I sold a '69 WS RA-III engine several years ago, and the buyer had me deliver the engine to a guy who was somewhat local even though the buyer was out of state. I later found out he was going to restamp it for him. I don't know the details of the process, but one could certainly mill a few thousandths off the face of the block and restamp it. There are undoubtedly ways to add fake patina such as pitting using acid, salt water, punches, etc. If there's a way people can cheat to make money, there are always a few who will do it. Someone ought to be able to trace the ownership of this vehicle down and find the person who replaced the block and ask for an explanation of where it came from.

Edit: After reading the entire thread, I see the issue might be someone added the VIN to the existing block that was unstamped. If it's the correct size and font, that would be pretty difficult to prove when it was stamped. At least the buyer of the car was informed in advance of the potential issue.