Rebuild or Crate
 

My wife and I have her fathers 69 Firebird 350. All stock. He bought it new in 69. It needs a lot of work. But it runs and drives and looks good from across the parking lot. Far across.

We have weighed the pros and cons and dollars of various levels of need v want.

Bottom line is we are not going to dump $50k into a full resoration. BUT... it would be nice if it was somewhat reliable and she could feel confident in driving it to work now and then on summer days.

Suspension is sound. Front disc brake upgrade done. Rear end is a question. Gas tank needs replacement. Interior is beautifuly worn and feels like an old car should!

Biggest issue is the engine. It still runs reasonably strong but its tired. Many things have been replaced including heads but it has 250k on it miles easy. 2bbl with single exhaust.

Rebuilding the 350 is an option but not without complications. Especially given that it likey needs everything. And 350 everything is getting harder to find and requires a lot more machining. And in the end you have a nice 350 (granted the original 350 if that still means something). I'm not hating on the 350 but it is what it is. I would shoot for 325ish HP with a rebuild.

For about the same money, or less, I can buy a drop in ready to run 400. Then you have a much more desirebale engine and she can do better burn outs leaving the office. :-)

I'm just looking for opinions here... I realize there is no right answer.
And if anyone has experience with, or is, a northeast engine builder I would love to hear what they have to say.

Thanks

I don’t follow your statement that alludes to a 350 needing machining then any other Pontiac that may need a rebuilding.

A P350 isn't going to take any more machining than building any other Pontiac engine would take.

If you can honestly purchase a turn key pan to carb 400 that is ready to drop in for less than having your 350 rebuild, that's kind of a no brainer to me. There are no desireable and rare 350 2bbl cars that worrying about originality would make sense from a car value standpoint.

But, I'll point out that rebuilding a P350 now is probably easier than it's been in a very long time. You can get oversized pistons now readily and there are a plethora of rod choices, from entry level to extreme.

Your power goals aren't outside of the possibility for a 350 and it's basically a stock type rebuild on a 400, so I don't know if you can really go wrong in either direction. That said if you know the fuel system needs work and the rear end needs attention, be sure to factor in those costs. Adding power has a way of amplifying other issues.

That quote caught my attention as well. All Pontiac V-8 engines cost the same to machine, given the same condition. You asked for an opinion, so here it is. It seems that a numbers matching engine is not important so I would abandon the 1/4 million mile 350 that lives under the hood now. If a 325 HP driver is the desire as you stated, a 1971 or newer 400 or 455 would be the most cost effective build and instantly get you there with iron heads, stock components, lowest cost. Bolt it in and go. Where to buy such an engine? This forum often has just what your looking for in the various for sale categories. If you decide to build your own engine, a 350 cost the same or more than a 400 or 455. Pistons are harder to source and more expensive. Everything else cost about the same. Who wouldn't want an extra 100 cubic inches for free in a street car? That's 80 HP minimum without any work. Making 325 HP from a Pontiac 350 cost as much 425 HP from a 455. Not to mention the torque gain for your tire melting wife on her way home from work!!

I just took a very quick look on Facebook Marketplace. (10 minutes) There are 22 400 complete engines and 3 455 engines within 250 miles of Dayton OH for sale. All $1000.00 or less. Of course you need to do a careful study of what they actually are and condition. There are also several for 15-20K for essentially the same stuff. That's Marketplace for you. My point is, they are still out there.

I bot this TA in the dreaded c0vid days and the non-original 455 seized on my way home. :( long story off topic...

Anyway, it was going to take $$$ and way too much time to get it rebuilt so after a couple months of searching I found a used 455 a few states over and rolled the dice on it. Looking back it was such a risky move but ended up working out in the end.

I spent a lot of time researching before that and Len was the cheapest/best rep I could find on the internets - not that close but another option for you:

http://www.lenwilliamsautomachine.co...ong_Block.html

Good luck with your Pontiac!

"Runs reasonably strong but is tired"

What exactly does this mean? Which one is it? To me, 'reasonably strong' describes a well tuned, low mileage 2bbl 350.

Do you know the complete history on the engine/shortblock? Have you done a compression test - if so, what were the results?

I'd fully evaluate what you have before you start throwing money at it.

455 in my 74 granville got about 12-14 mpg back and forth to work with 3spd auto. I like the 455. I'm not sure of 400 mpg. Try to find a good mechanic locally that can help with decision of what engine to buy.

As a point of reference if you decide to build an engine. The very basic parts to do a quality rebuild will cost $2500.00 today for a Pontiac. $1500-1800 for a Chevy SB. About double what it was before COVID, Tariffs, general inflation etc. I am talking about the following: Full gasket set, new cast pistons, rings, main, rod, cam bearings, new Chinese rods or reconditioned stock rods, new flat tappet cam, lifters, pushrods, valve springs, rocker arms, valves. oil and water pump, timing set. That's the basics. Add full machining costs, cleaning, crankshaft grind or polish, rebuild carburetor, distributor. Quickly the cost goes to around 5K. Hope this helps. The days of the $1000.00 overhaul are long, long over.

I see the Len Williams long block is $7600.00. He has a good reputation. So assuming you have to pay $1000.00 for a core engine. with my $5000.00 estimate above, your at $6000.00 I did not include the extra $500.00 for forged piston Len uses, also crankshaft grinding and balancing about $400.00 So we are in the same ballpark. Good luck with whatever you decide to do. Buying a turn key engine from this forum from a known member would probably be the most cost effective way to go.

My thoughts around additional machining expense were related to the extra cost of reworking the heads, possibly needing extensive valve work. Also wasn't sure about piston options that might require extra consideration.

I'm glad to hear that that wouldn't be anything particulary extra and that 350 internal parts options are available . I had heard that this was not always the case.

First of all, that is a cool story, 57 year old one family car. Secondly, the fact that a Pontiac bottom end went 250k, assuming untouched, is pretty gnarly. I'm curious, tho, why the heads got replaced, and what they got replaced with. Sounds like a car that was well taken care of.

As much as I hate to give up on a 350, if you aren't concerned about originality, a crate 400 makes sense. It would look the same externally. And it depends on how much DIY skill and desire you have.

How badly the power bug bites you will also play a fun game of finding the next weakest link, especially with the easy power with bigger cubes.

Have the carburetor professionally rebuilt, same with the distributor if it’s getting worn out regarding shaft bushings. New fuel pump.

Replace the timing chain assembly. New water pump and divider plate, new timing cover if it’s looking corroded which is common. New aluminum radiator if the original one is showing its age.

If it’s not leaking oil excessively or consuming oil at a high rate why not just keep driving it? A Pontiac 350 2-barrel is practically bulletproof just like the 326 that preceded it. I’m sure the power is already plenty for your wife.

There’s really very little to go wrong that would make it unreliable in any sense, as long as the fuel, ignition and cooling systems are up to snuff. Rebuilding an already good running engine won’t make it that much more reliable.

Well... you never met my wife! LOL

The heads were replaced sometime in the 80's. Good news way they were set up for unleaded gas. Bad news is they are #11s not the original #47. Probably a slight drop in compression but not enough to really change the equation. I also have some #17s and a 69' 4 barrel intake lying around which I would love to use. And yes the bottom end is all original. But the rear main seal is toast.

I am pretty sure the 11's were just a 1970 version of the 47's, so that's good.

If it was me, I would freshen it up myself and stay 350 with a Summit 2800 cam. 10 years ago when I built my 350, I didn't find a bunch of piston options. Previous posters say there are more options now. But I won't write checks that your wallet, time, and health have to cash.;)

Heck, if the engine is running well, but just leaking, I'd just reseal the thing.

Take the engine out and get a gasket kit for it. Degrease the whole thing, replace all the gaskets, including the front and rear mains, replace the timing chain (and cover if needed) and you could think about doing a small cam upgrade.

Put that 69 intake on the car with a rebuilt quadrajet and go have fun.

I understand 11s have unexpectedly high volume, maybe 87 to 90 cc, so the other 2 might give you more compression increase than you expect:

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ighlight=11+cc

Mike

If originality matters send your core to someone like Len Williams and have him rebuild it. If it doesnt matter get the 400, especially if you want more power.

here is what butler offers for 350 pistons

https://butlerperformance.com/c-1394...0-pistons.html

some of the less common engines the parts can be somewhat higher cost. For example the pistons for my 65 389 the ross custom milled dish pistons with rings and pins etc were about $1200 where as similar pistons for a 400 are $850 -900. Ok the cost is more but $400 doesn't move the needle in the entire build cost.

other things to think about is getting forged rods and aftermarket crank - depends on how much you want ot lean on it. Id say if you have 250k on the factory engine as stock rebuild is probably ok .

a car is only original... until it isn't.

my opinion especially if it's something your wife is going to occasionally drive;
rebuild the original engine, find a stock grind cam, and let your aspired horsepower numbers be dammed.

My opinion is that if/when you look to sell, an unmodified all original car (with a rebuilt numbers engine) will be an easier sale than a modified car - in a sea of modified vintage cars.

There is a reason why original cars tend to make more money than modified cars;
With every passing year, there are fewer and fewer original cars.