Guys, that's exactly the input I was hoping for.
Tenney, was that the GTO vs. GTO Ferrari event? Is there a write-up on how that turned out? I talked with Keith a bit about attending but I couldn't pull it off. Sounded like it would be fun.
What is meant by "the fiddle"?
Never thought a bobcatted '64 was running 13.50s back in the day. Pretty neat.
Always wondered what became of John Jerome. Seems he left NYC & C&D not long after the testing, divorced his wife in '65, died in 2002 at 69 from lung cancer. Too bad, would be interesting to hear his recollections of the trip to Daytona and the Blue car.
Keith, I'm not aware of any underhood shots of the Blue car, nothing in the C&D article that would help. I think there are shots that show a 421 that appear in other mag articles, but I think these were believed or known to be of the Red car.
You guys have convinced me, if Proulx could run those times with a bobcatted 389, then C&D was blown away by a legit GTO, the Bobcat treatment was not disguised, it was thoroughly described in the article and not considered more than tuning. I misjudged the performance based on the mid & high 14 sec. 1/4 times that seemed to be the norm in other '64 test articles.
Anybody know for sure when the Daytona testing took place?
Tenney, do you have any idea about the trans put in the Red car, why the seemingly incorrect gearset info (non-Muncie) in the article and same reference to a "close ratio trans" in the Proulx article (do you agree he must have driven the Blue car with the manual steering)?
I know I've commented before about the rear axle gearing, but is there any explanation why Wangers specified the 3.23 gears for it in the build order for the Red car?
And any idea what gears it traveled to Daytona with?
Any idea if PHS has ever tried to find the Manifest for the Blue car? Had to have been built very early for Proulx to have raced it in October. Almost certainly built at Pontiac. And how many Nocturne Blue Tri-Power GTOs with the 3.90 axle and all of the other identifed options could there have been up to that point? [/QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenney
The GTO v. GTO event was fun, John. The day before leaving to attend, I was informed that Bernie Carl's 250 GTO - which I had been told would be participating - was to be replaced by a replica. Tough to do an accurate GTO v. GTO, but the car was a pretty nice copy and the owner a really good fellow. Was told initially we'd do some runs for fun on a neighboring airstrip that never materialized, but we did go on a fun run or two around town. Almost ran out of gas, in fact! All in all a great time, and Jim Wangers was a hit with the Ferrari folks!
I think by "fiddle", David E. meant "ringer", or "cheater", or something not above-board. He made mention of the event in his 08/10 Car and Driver column.
Car and Driver is the only test that featured the red car, I believe. Though there are shots of the blue car in the 03/64 issues of Cars and Popular Hot Rodding.
Daytona testing took place December 26th thru 29th, per Mr. Wangers' book.
I'm told the M-20 was replaced with an M-21 in the red car. And that 3.90's were installed at the same time (along w/the 421) - and this is how the car went to Daytona. I don't know why 3.23's were initially specified on the manifest. I'll ask.
Would guess Jim M. has checked for a blue car manifest. Jim W. says it was a pilot car w/no VIN. It was built initially to help sell the GTO program - and care was taken to make sure everything fit just right and was screwed together properly. This was the one he wanted Car and Driver to spend some extended time with.
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1) My documentation for my 64 GTO also shows a 3.23 gear ratio initially installed BUT a 3.90 gear ratio was in the car when I received it.
2) I believe Jim W when he said the Blue car was a Pilot Car but I have a issue with the No VIN deal. By law, all vehicles produced and on the road (even in 1964) were supposed to have VIN #s, even "test mules".
3) The "Blue Car" was supposedly destroyed in a fire many years ago.
Funny thing is, I have heard "rumors" over the years from very good sources that the car was not destroyed.
4) I was told by one of these "sources" that he knew where the car actually was stored. Insurance Fraud is a serious crime, even today, but how could an insurance company go after a company that went bankrupt and who would really care if the car "re-appeared" at some point. All of the experimental engines were supposed to be destroyed too.
5) Tenney says there are "shots of the blue car in the 03/64 issues of Cars and Popular Hot Rodding." Going by that deal, then the "Blue Car" would have had at some point a 421 engine installed. Pictures clearly show the Pyramid at the back of the block on a engine being worked on in that time frame in Cars/PHR magazines. The "source" also told be the "Blue Car" had a 421 engine installed at some point.
You have to take these comments with a grain of salt but the comments were made while I was helping Greg S work on Bill Sherman's (now Tenney's car) with Milt S for drag strip work and the "Sources" were present.
Tom Vaught