[james66GTO]

Hi guys I could use a little help & guidance. I am buying a '69 and just got my PHS documents in the mail. There was no Car Billing History paperwork - is this common for 69 and above? I am somewhat familiar with 65 and 66 documentation, trying to educate myself on 64 (although that could be offered as a college course with full credits) but I am unfamiliar with 69. Basically just got invoice and power train information. Is there no way to get information on the engine unit number ? Thanks

[1oldgoat]

The EUN is only on the build sheet in 69-up, not on the invoice.

[68bird400HO]

Originally Posted by james66GTO

Hi guys I could use a little help & guidance. I am buying a '69 and just got my PHS documents in the mail. There was no Car Billing History paperwork - is this common for 69 and above? I am somewhat familiar with 65 and 66 documentation, trying to educate myself on 64 (although that could be offered as a college course with full credits) but I am unfamiliar with 69. Basically just got invoice and power train information. Is there no way to get information on the engine unit number ? Thanks

If you are trying to determine if your engine is original, they started stamping the car's VINs on the blocks in 68. The VIN is located vertically along the passenger side of the timing cover just behind where the lower radiator hose attaches.

[james66GTO]

So if my PHS packet did not come with a build sheet that means it just wasn't available on my particular car for some reason correct ?

[james66GTO]

It's a Fremont build so it gets a little dicey

[1oldgoat]

My Fremont built 71 had a beautiful one on top of the gas tank. I got lucky that it was in good condition.

[GTO JOHN]

For 69-newer all you can get from PHS is the invoice and powertrain sheet. The block will have the vin stamped into it.

For 68-older the Car billing sheet is what you get from PHS with the highlighted order sheets. EUN is available on 67 car billing sheets but nothing older I think.

On the 69 you are buying, what are you questioning?

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by james66GTO

So if my PHS packet did not come with a build sheet that means it just wasn't available on my particular car for some reason correct ?

The build sheet rides along with the car as it is being built and is supposed to be thrown away at the end of the process. If you find one it is because someone didn't do their job and clean all of the trash from the vehicle at the end of the line. They exist only in the car if at all and have never been available through PHS.

The billing history card was saved by PMD as a financial record. That is why they existed abd were available to be acquired by PHS.

K

[james66GTO]

GTOJohn - just trying to verify if the engine is original to the car. It's a Fremont car with no apparent block VIN. You would think with that great big, beautiful EUN number staring me in the face I could match it up to something.

Keith - the Car Billing History paperwork must have existed in some form or another - any idea why it was not turned over to PHS ?

Thanks

[johnta1]

The info they do have wasn't 'turned' over to PHS, I believe.
They were lucking to get what they did I think.

What is the engine code, date code and eun on the block and the build date and VIN of the car?

I have a database of eun's, might be able to tell if it's close?

[Held for Ransom]

There were some early '69s that had the Billing History cards. They went to the newer format of invoicing starting in '69. I don't think they saw a need for the EUN to be recorded when they started stamping the partial VIN on the engines. Build sheets typically didn't carry the EUN either. If this car hasn't had the gas tank dropped, the build sheet may still be there.

[james66GTO]

John - I have the EUN at my office along with the build date but I wasn't able to get the engine casting date or block number. The seller reported that the casting date is within a month and a half of the build date (although he couldn't get a picture of it). It is a WT block which is correct. I believe the seller is being straight with me and telling me everything he knows but his information only goes so far. I am taking a remote camera scope with me to get the block number and date. But the problem is, even if the casting number and date check out it still only gets me 90% of the way there. I still would not be able to know with independent certainty that it was the original block. I would still be left with "well, the previous owner was a really great guy and he said it was original, and the previous owner to that was a really great guy and he said it was original", yada, yada, yada.

Frankly, I'm going to buy it either way because I like the car and the way it is optioned. It's just that you would think that by the time you reach 1969 the EUN number would mean something (!) I love PHS and always appreciate the information I got for the 64 through 66 and 67 years but the 69 PHS feels kind of like going on a date with the girl that everyone's been with and only getting an over the blouse feel

[james66GTO]

Ransom - it has been through a frame off so unless one of the previous owners kept it and didn't pass it along it was not there

[dataway]

So the owner is saying there is NO VIN stamped on the engine? I can be pretty faint, but any frame-off should have recorded it if it was there. Sometimes it can be partially obscured by the timing cover.
I'd be very suspect if it wasn't there. SR blocks didn't typically have the VIN if I recall.

Here is where they are located .... look down at the lower left in the picture.

[Ram4king]

Originally Posted by dataway

So the owner is saying there is NO VIN stamped on the engine? I can be pretty faint, but any frame-off should have recorded it if it was there. Sometimes it can be partially obscured by the timing cover.
I'd be very suspect if it wasn't there. SR blocks didn't typically have the VIN if I recall.

Here is where they are located .... look down at the lower left in the picture.

This is where you make your mistake over and over and over and over again!
Freemont cars did NOT put he vin there. It's up by the engine code upside down on the passenger side. Look close there. It will be there for sure.

[dataway]

Well there you go, you can't depend on Pontiac to do the same thing at any two production plants
Wish all the plants put them up there, they would be much easier to read.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by james66GTO

Keith - the Car Billing History paperwork must have existed in some form or another - any idea why it was not turned over to PHS ?

Thanks

Yes - there was a dispute about the ownership of the information and PMD took it back from PHS. PMD actually threw it in a dumpster, which is where Jim Mattison retrieved it (along with a few other physical items). Some of the microfiche was lost or damaged in the process, which is why there are small "windows" of missing information between 1961 and 1986 or so.

As a result, every so often some unfortunate soul will report that PHS does not have the detail for their specific car.

Brief history of PHS included below, for your entertainment. These are my own notes; not reviewed or endorsed by PHS. I had the original Pontiac historian, Fred Simmonds, in the passenger seat of my car so I grilled him mercilessly for about two hours. Hopefully the added background will help.

K

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Eric -

Have you or anyone ever written an article about the "pre-history" of PHS?

During our trip I asked Fred about the technique he used to find the '62 and '63 Super Duty cars; before answering my question he framed the discussion by giving me the background of how he came to find the records and learn to use them, and how Mattison came to found Pontiac Historic Services.

I was driving and couldn't write anything down but this is how I remember what he said:

Back in the middle 1980's he was "into" HO model trains but as he got older he was frustrated because he couldn't see what he was doing (apparently he has always had poor eyesight). He ended up selling all of his train stuff but found himself without a hobby. His wife suggested that he should get a car so after a brief search he found the '67 Lemans that he still has.

His initial introduction to the Pontiac records was through trying to find out information about his own car. He mentioned to one of the secretaries that he would like to know how his car was built and she said "oh, I can find that out". Sure enough, within a couple days she produced the invoice and option content (sort of a prehistoric "PHS" packet!). He asked her how she did that and she replied that the information still existed on property and that it was guarded by a financial person.

Fred later found out this financial guy was going to retire, so he began to visit with him and learn where the information was located and how it was stored. During this time (still mid 80's?) there was a lot of employee turmoil in the form of retirements and outright separations so there was a lot of stuff getting thrown out. Fred told all his friends he was interested in "right of first refusal" so anything they had that might be interesting was passed by him before being pitched. He said he would literally make a trip home every night with all kinds of photos, literature, memorabilia, hardware, trophies, paint samples, etc.

By this time they were receiving maybe a request or two a day from Pontiac enthusiasts (usually fellow employees) that had heard about this service. Between Fred or his friend they were able to fulfill these requests. Additionally, Fred would come in early and poke around, then maybe return at lunch time and finally spend some time in the records before heading home for the evening, just nosing around.

Eventually the requests got to be too much for one person to handle on a part time basis, maybe 20 or so a day. He and Jim Mattison had been friends before that and Jim had become quite familiar with the records and how they were organized (more on that in a minute). It was at that point that Jim approached Pontiac Motor Division and suggested that he could form a company (Automotive Services) and maintain the records and fulfill these requests for information. At that point the information would still belong to Pontiac (I'm guessing) but he would provide the service as a contractor (I'm sure). All of this was taking place while the records were down in the vault, in the basement of the Administration building.

Eventually, when the Administration building was "closed" (maybe not the right wording, but when the functions were rearranged or offices reallocated) that's when Jim and the records were relocated to Shows & Shoots (which is where I found him). I think you are familiar with the story about Pontiac taking the records back, and in their infinite wisdom they actually threw them out. Jim literally retrieved them from the dumpster which (I suspect) forms the foundation of the dispute over ownership which still exists today or was only recently resolved.

So - about the Super Dutys: The very first request had to do with one of the '62 Super Duty Grand Prix (Allan Gartzman's '62 Grand Prix; one of 16). Fred got a request to check into that car and, having been provided the VIN, he was able to confirm that it was in fact a Super Duty car. There was some variation in how the records were stored based on model year; the '62s were one way (maybe by VIN by Plant) and the '63s were different (like in VIN order by plant but grouped by body style). At any rate what he did was search for that car and then extend his search a little bit in both directions, looking for the engine option code. Eventually, he had a list of VINs going and so he expanded his search to include Catalinas and Bonnevilles (ie, non Grand Prix models) until he had a comprehensive list of 1962 cars. He looked through every 1962 invoice record; He said he continued on into '63 but did not actually look at them all - he went through 160,000 or so invoices but when he got out into the May or June timeframe it had been so long since he had seen any car that even remotely resembled a performance car that he gave up. Bottom line is that Fred literally went through hundreds of thousands of invoices, one by one (on the microfiche) in order to find those cars.

I thought it was fascinating and that others might also be interested. It might be a good idea to get this down on paper (accurately) before it's too late.

[Ram4king]

That's a great story. Thanks for sharing.

[will slow gto]

Agree with Ram4king. My YS block from my numbers matching, Fremont-built '69 GTO has the partial VIN stamped way higher than the example in the photo. The stamping is also incredibly faint, so much so that only several of the digits are completely recognizable. If the restorer was a little overzealous with the paint, it could easily be covered up. These 'faint' partial VINs are pretty well known/documented (at least by folks that frequent this board) for Fremont built cars so if you're unable to locate one, the originality argument may still has a leg to stand on. WT was a pretty common block for 69 GTO so there should probably be no more than a 2 month difference in block casting date and vehicle build date. As a side note, I've not been able to locate a build sheet from either the top of the gas tank or behind the rear seat.

[brians]

Keith:
One was always able to get the 69 and newer invoice by calling Pontiac customer service prior to PHS but they would black out prices. (They always stated 68 and older were not available)

Was the post 69 set up differently than pre 69 in Pontiac or was it actually Fred Simmonds pulling each request?