[Harmonmp]

Good morning -

I have a 1964 Pontiac Grand Prix that has a 1963 coded motor in it - not sure as to why.. I inherited this from my wife’s grandad. I have had it for 7 years.

Currently undergoing an engine rebuild. I did a full gasket, changing out some key parts like oil pump, rear main seal, electric ignition, etc.

I’m at the stage to prime the oil. I bought an oil priming tool from Ames that fits on my drill to turn the shaft inside the distributer hole on the oil pump. I turned it counter clockwise for 3-4 minutes and never saw any oil.

I know that earlier models oiled from the rocker studs, which is covered by the rocker nut and washer, so I took one off to see if I could get oil to come up that way. Still nothing.

I replaced the nut and washer and turned the motor two full revolutions and tried again. Still nothing.

Am I doing something wrong?

[johnta1]

Should be working.
How much oil is in it?
Stock pan?

Should be 6 quarts in it.

Any kind of drag on the drill when spinning?
(should be)
Also how fast is it spinning?

[mgarblik]

I don't know if anything is wrong. But Here are a few questions. 1. Are you sure you are running the drill counterclockwise? 2. Do you have an oil pressure gauge on the engine system so you can look at the pressure? 3. Do you feel significant resistance in the drill motor when you spin the shaft? 4. Did you replace the camshaft for this rebuild? I have seen some replacement camshafts that were not drilled to deliver oil to the top end on stud oiled engines. The oil delivery is timed through the camshaft bearings through the camshaft. The head gaskets used may need a passage from block to head on each side. Not positive on that. Experts on the older engines would know for sure. Not sure if there is a work around if the cam/bearing/oil passages have been compromised to convert it to oiling through the pushrods instead. You have a number of things to check out and verify.

[pfilean]

If I remember the oil to the studs comes from the oil gallery on each side of the block. To get to the head it passes through a duct on each side of the block into the head The passage to the head presents as a cut passage between two holes. That cut is near the rear on the driver side and near the front on the passenger side. (remember the heads could be used on either side.) If the gaskets are installed wrong end forward /backward the cut would be on the wrong end. I would hope gasket makers would not have forgotten this fact and stopped making the cut.

[johnta1]

Did you pre-fill the filter?
It may not have filled it yet if not?
(need more drilling)

[Bill Hanlon]

I copied the info below from a 2015 post I did to help solve the exact problem you are working on.

Prior to 1963/4 (depending on the engine), Pontiac engines oiled the rocker arm balls and the rocker arm tip to top of the valve interface by pumping oil through a passage from about 2 o'clock on the #4 cam bearing to the left head and a passage at about 10 o'clock on the #2 cam bearing to the right head. Oil is "timed" through the cam journal as the cam turns. This means that the oil only gets to pass through the cam during a few degrees of cam rotation.

Once the oil passes through the cam it travels up a passage in the block to the head and into a gallery that runs front to back (or back to front) in the head. The bottom of the rocker arm studs sit in this gallery. The stud has a small (about 1/16") hole drilled up the center of the stud, almost, but not quite to the top. Another hole is drilled through the side of the stud, just below the threaded end, meeting the hole up the middle of the stud. Oil passes out of the stud and lubricates the ball/rocker and rocker/valve interfaces.

The rocker/pushrod interface is lubricated in the familiar way, oil being pumped from the lifter and through the pushrod to the rocker.

A picture of all of this can be found in this GMC (they used Pontiac V8 engines from 1955 through 1959) Maintenance Manual.
http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com...5559mm435.html

So the net of all this is that you can't expect oil to reach the rockers in an old Pontiac V8 unless you have the camshaft in exactly the right rotational position. And both heads will not get oil at the same cam position.

... and all this assumes you have the proper 3 holes drilled in the #2 and #4 cam journals and bearings with matching holes and that the bearings are aligned with the holes in the block. The holes in the bearings are not evenly spaced.

[Harmonmp]

Thanks for all the replies!

I’ll try and answer the questions asked. Yes, I turned it counter clockwise. Yes, there was resistance after about 5-7 seconds. The only time resistance decreased is when I had my son turn the crank just past 1 full revolution (180 degrees out of time). Also heard oil moving when that happened so I stayed there for a bit of time to hopefully see oil come from the rocker studs. Then we turned a 1/4 turn until we got back to TDC.

I still never saw any oil at the rocker studs. I did this two more times. Still nothing.

I noticed that some priming tools have a piece that fits into the distributor bore. Mine does not, only fits on the oil pump shaft. I was wondering if that piece is required to cover the hole in the distributor bore to continue the oil path?

I also noticed that there is some oil coming from the freeze plug at the rear of the gallery in the head. I would think that would mean that oil is getting up to the rocker arm, but I’m still not seeing any oil come out of the cross-drilled hole.

Yes, 6 quarts of oil in stock oil pan. I did take the filter off to see if the pump was working and I less than 3 seconds of priming, oil was definitely pumping out. I refilled the the filter 3/4 and started priming again. But still nothing.

[Harmonmp]

Also, I did not replace the cam. The bottom end wasn’t messed with other than changing the oil pump.

Mr. Hanlon - I have the valley pan and intake manifold on.. can’t see the lobes on the cam now. Do you happen to remember what clock position for the crank that would align these holes? I would like to verify that this is working to some degree before dropping her back in the car.

Thanks!

[Bill Hanlon]

Originally Posted by Harmonmp

Also, I did not replace the cam. The bottom end wasn’t messed with other than changing the oil pump.

Mr. Hanlon - I have the valley pan and intake manifold on.. can’t see the lobes on the cam now. Do you happen to remember what clock position for the crank that would align these holes? I would like to verify that this is working to some degree before dropping her back in the car.

I'm sorry, I don't.

And it wouldn't be the crank position, it would be the cam position which is only lined up once in 2 crank turns for each head.

Jack Gifford may know.

[Bill Hanlon]

Talked to Jack. He did not remember the "timing" of the oil holes. But because you didn't take the cam out you shouldn't have a problem in the short block.

Questions remaining are:

1. Do the head gaskets have proper passageways for the oil flow to transition from the block to the heads? It is not a straight shot through a round hole. 2nd picture below shows the hole. The cut out in the head gasket is an oval. This drawing is of a pre-60 head that has cooling tubes that are fed directly from the water pump. Your 63 does not have these.

2. Did the shop that rebuilt the heads clean out the oil galleries? 1st picture shows the plug in one end of the head that needs to be removed to clean out the gallery. There is a plug in each end.

With the drill motor keeping the oil pump running, you should be able to very slowly turn the crankshaft (maybe 10 degrees, then wait for 30 seconds or so) checking for oil flow in one head or the other. Maybe pull a rocker arm off of each head to make the flow easier to see.

I'd pour a tablespoon of oil into each rocker arm, say a prayer to the great Ottawa war chief Pontiac and crank it up. Don't expect to have oil spurting out over the fenders like the later V8s that lube the whole top end through the pushrods.

Let us know how it goes.

[Harmonmp]

Thanks Mr. Hanlon,

I’m hoping my photos came through to the thread. If so, this is the gasket used (from Butler Performance) and my head. I believe that since the head gasket and head are symmetrical, I couldn’t have messed this up if I tried. It appears that if I flipped it or got it backwards, it still would not have blocked any hole.

As far as the head oil galleries, there are fresh plugs in both the front and rear of the galleries. The rear drivers side gallery actually has a little oil seepage coming from it. So it makes me feel that it’s getting to where it needs to, but after all this work, would like to really know before putting it back in the car. However, I did come to the conclusion last night that a prayer might be the best way to live forward. If two full turns of the crank has a few degrees of hole alignment for each head, then it’s essentially trying to find maybe ~4 degrees out of 360.

[Bill Hanlon]

Originally Posted by Harmonmp

this is the gasket used (from Butler Performance) and my head. I believe that since the head gasket and head are symmetrical, I couldn’t have messed this up if I tried. It appears that if I flipped it or got it backwards, it still would not have blocked any hole.

I agree. Picture below just highlights the channel in the head that the oil flows through. The green circle lines up with the oil passageway up from the #2 or #4 cam bearing depending on which side the head is mounted on.

Originally Posted by Harmonmp

The rear drivers side gallery actually has a little oil seepage coming from it.

If it is seeping a little now it'll leak later. Get it fixed before installing the engine.