Talking points. - PY Online Forums

RandyW · #1 12-22-2004, 05:14 AM

I hear that the new GTO isn't real because of shared engines. Well the mid-size GM cars have shared engines in one form or another since thier inception in 1961. Early years shared the 231 between Buick and Olds, the 215 V8 was used by Pontiac, Buick and Olds for a year or two. Pontiac used Chevy sixes except '66-'69. GMC used Pontiac V8's in the 1950's and early '60's.

Others say, 'it looks too much like a Grand AM or Grand Prix'. Well fellows, it is a Pontiac! Would yo'u rather it looked like a Dodge? The '64-73 looked just like a LeMans! I guess they were too non descript as well?

All a GTO ever was is a mid-size GM platform with a high performance drivetrain, suspension and some scoops.
I realize that some cars are more than the sum of thier parts, but this new GTO is a very qualified GTO.

I still believe that most owners of older GTO's wouldn't like any new GTO, because it somehow takes away from thier exclusivity. For thirty years they had something special that you couldn't buy today as a new car. Now they feel like thier territory has been violated.
Most owners of old GTO's are never going to like any new GTO, because they feel thier domain is threatened. Had GTO's been built straight through, these same people would be saying,'it's about time a new GTO performed like this'.
Just my opinion!

RandyW · #2 12-22-2004, 05:14 AM

I hear that the new GTO isn't real because of shared engines. Well the mid-size GM cars have shared engines in one form or another since thier inception in 1961. Early years shared the 231 between Buick and Olds, the 215 V8 was used by Pontiac, Buick and Olds for a year or two. Pontiac used Chevy sixes except '66-'69. GMC used Pontiac V8's in the 1950's and early '60's.

Others say, 'it looks too much like a Grand AM or Grand Prix'. Well fellows, it is a Pontiac! Would yo'u rather it looked like a Dodge? The '64-73 looked just like a LeMans! I guess they were too non descript as well?

All a GTO ever was is a mid-size GM platform with a high performance drivetrain, suspension and some scoops.
I realize that some cars are more than the sum of thier parts, but this new GTO is a very qualified GTO.

I still believe that most owners of older GTO's wouldn't like any new GTO, because it somehow takes away from thier exclusivity. For thirty years they had something special that you couldn't buy today as a new car. Now they feel like thier territory has been violated.
Most owners of old GTO's are never going to like any new GTO, because they feel thier domain is threatened. Had GTO's been built straight through, these same people would be saying,'it's about time a new GTO performed like this'.
Just my opinion!

Mr_GTO · #3 12-22-2004, 05:23 AM

Or it wasn't built in the US(although the last gen of F-bodies is ok since it was built in Canada and then they BITCHED about them getting cancelled but they didn't purchase any and the last ones used the EXACT same engine as the GTO but because the F-body was never discontinued it was ok for them but not for the GTO).

And it looks like everything else on the road but I'll be damned if I see a GM A-body going down the road it takes me a few seconds to determine if it is a LeMans, GTO, Skylark, Cutlass, Chevelle, Malibu, Grand Sport, SS, or 442. It was ok back then but it isn't today.

Don't interject any logic into the argument that the more things change the more they stay the same. They don't want to hear it.

Goathead · #4 12-22-2004, 07:38 AM

You guy's are priceless....

Mr_GTO · #5 12-22-2004, 07:53 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Goathead:
You guy's are priceless....

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But factually correct.

David Jones · #6 12-22-2004, 08:12 AM

The Champ · #7 12-22-2004, 09:27 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Goathead:
You guy's are priceless....

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Better than being worthless...

red70goat · #8 12-22-2004, 10:04 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr_GTO:

... GTO...Chevelle,... Grand Sport, SS, or 442.
QUOTE]

All readily indentifiable as musclecars. Something that looks like a GrandAm or Cavalier is hardly identifiable as a musclecar. There are hell of a lot more cars on the road produced by a lot more manufacturers copying the same Jelly bean mold today then there were making F-bodies during the musclcar era of the 60's-70's. GM should have spent more time producing a late model GTO that looks like it has some balls rather than following in lockstep with the same old tired agenda of another mass produced jellybean with spoilers and hoodscoops.

red70goat · #9 12-22-2004, 10:09 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr_GTO:
Or it wasn't built in the US(although the last gen of F-bodies is ok since it was built in Canada). (QUOTE]

I don't think people would much care where it was built as long as it looks like a GTO in whatever format that is and the quality is acceptable. From what I could tell on the 04 I saw and test drove an Aussie assembly line could use some additional quality control audits.

Goathead · #10 12-22-2004, 10:26 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Goathead:
You guy's are priceless....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Better than being worthless...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Easy now Champ, the '04 is not worthless..

RandyW · #11 12-22-2004, 11:02 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> All readily indentifiable as musclecars. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not so fast my friend! From a side view at a moderate distance, you wouldn't know a GTO from a 6 cyl. Tempest or LeMans (except '67 LeMans)!!

68GTOConv · #12 12-22-2004, 11:20 AM

I've had several old show-condition built musclecars. I've also built late model muscle, particularly the LS1 variety.

You know the best way to identify which is the real original musclecar? It's the one in the rear when you see them racing :-)

Mike M

red70goat · #13 12-22-2004, 11:23 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Randy W:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> All readily indentifiable as musclecars. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not so fast my friend! From a side view at a moderate distance, you wouldn't know a GTO from a 6 cyl. Tempest or LeMans (except '67 LeMans)!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True, but that's not my point. Pontiac has historically had a distinctive look regardless of whether it was a LeMans or GTO. The current GM format for the GTO is not distinctively Pontiac at all, but very much an industrial fleet look common among most manufacturers.

Mr_GTO · #14 12-22-2004, 11:35 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by red70goat:

True, but that's not my point. Pontiac has historically had a distinctive look regardless of whether it was a LeMans or GTO. The current GM format for the GTO is not distinctively Pontiac at all, but very much an industrial fleet look common among most manufacturers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

that why I had people in HS telling me "nice Chevelle"?

From 30 feet away moving down the road you can't tell what it is.

red70goat · #15 12-22-2004, 11:41 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mr_GTO:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by red70goat:

True, but that's not my point. Pontiac has historically had a distinctive look regardless of whether it was a LeMans or GTO. The current GM format for the GTO is not distinctively Pontiac at all, but very much an industrial fleet look common among most manufacturers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

that why I had people in HS telling me "nice Chevelle"?

From 30 feet away moving down the road you can't tell what it is. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...they knew it was a musclecar though didn't they? and not to be confused with grandpas grocery getter...

Mr_GTO · #16 12-22-2004, 11:47 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by red70goat:

...they knew it was a musclecar though didn't they? and not to be confused with grandpas grocery getter... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To the uniformed no.... To those in the know, they knew what the car was. Same goes today.

red70goat · #17 12-22-2004, 12:00 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mr_GTO:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by red70goat:

...they knew it was a musclecar though didn't they? and not to be confused with grandpas grocery getter... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To the uniformed no.... To those in the know, they knew what the car was. Same goes today. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thus my contention that the 05 GM Monaro will have to be sold on performance alone. To the uninformed it's just another tuner in waiting...to the informed it's a worthy performer short on looks.

Mr_GTO · #18 12-22-2004, 12:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by red70goat:

Thus my contention that the 05 GM Monaro will have to be sold on performance alone. To the uninformed it's just another tuner in waiting...to the informed it's a worthy performer short on looks. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That makes ZERO sense. To the INFORMED, the car is GREAT and the OWNERS love them.

To the UNIFORMED they don't even know the car exists not becuase of the car itself but because GM did a lousy job of advertising it. And the dealers didn't do GM any favors by trying to rip people off at every turn.

red70goat · #19 12-22-2004, 12:28 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mr_GTO:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by red70goat:

Thus my contention that the 05 GM Monaro will have to be sold on performance alone. To the uninformed it's just another tuner in waiting...to the informed it's a worthy performer short on looks. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That makes ZERO sense. To the INFORMED, the car is GREAT and the OWNERS love them.

To the UNIFORMED they don't even know the car exists not becuase of the car itself but because GM did a lousy job of advertising it. And the dealers didn't do GM any favors by trying to rip people off at every turn. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So everybody needs to be an owner to be informed? I read a dozen or so press releases on it, performance data, etc. Test drove it and found it to be very performance worthy. I thought the quality was substandard for a 30k+ car, the looks very bland and nothing reminiscent of a GTO. I got the information I needed to make a decision not to buy. I'll agree with you GM did a lousy job of advertising it. They were relying on the GTO name to carry them but didn't take into account the negative reaction from a once loyal consumer base. GM further screwed themselves by having people set an "appointmet"

for a test drive. Give me a break! It's a freakin' Monaro in GMC clothing not a Ferrari....

The Champ · #20 12-22-2004, 12:55 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by red70goat:
Pontiac has historically had a distinctive look regardless of whether it was a LeMans or GTO. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That distinctive look was a split grille.

The new GTO has one, just like all the current Pontiacs and all the old Pontiacs for the last 45+ years...