[TempestFugit]

I gathered these numbers over the years from various sources... I do not claim that they are 100% correct... just what I have, & I'm open to corrections explanations footnotes discussions etc. I just wanted to have them posted for reference purposes)

1961 Tempest
2117 custom sport cpe....7,455
2119 sedan 4d..............22,557
2120 custom sdn 4d.....40,082
2127 sprt cpe.................7,432
2135 wgn 4d..................7,404
2136 custom wgn 4d....15,853
..Total..........................100,783


1962 Tempest
2117 spt cpe...............51,981
2119 sdn 4d................37,430
2127 cpe.....................15,473
2135 safari wgn 4d.....17,674
2167 conv cpe.............20,635
..Total........................143,193


1963 Tempest
2117 deluxe spt cpe.....13,157 (8328/4cyl - 4829/8cyl)
2119 sdn 4d.................28,221 (7121/4cyl - 5687/8cyl deluxe 4cyl 11991 - deluxe 8cyl 3422)
2127 cpe......................13,307 (11338/4cyl 1969/8cyl)
2135 wgn 4d................10,135 (2501/4cyl - 1702/8cyl deluxe 4cyl 4396 - deluxe 8cyl 1536)
2167 deluxe conv cpe.....5,012 (3634/4cyl - 1378/8cyl)
..Total...........................69,832


1963 LeMans
2217 spt cpe................47,701 (23227/4cyl - 22474/8cyl)
2267 conv cpe.............15,957 (8744/4cyl - 7213/8cyl)
..Total..........................63,658

Total 1963..................133,490

Total 61-63................377,466

[63Banshee]

Now we know

[Keith Seymore]

Thanks for posting. Subscribing for future reference.

K

I dont see the Lemans convertible listed separately from the 2167 Sport convertible in 1962?? (Apparently they also didnt separate the 4Cyl from V8 either??)

I only raise the question because I know that in 1962 Olds made the F85 in both Sport convertible models and Cutlass convertible models. The Sport convertible was produced in far fewer numbers. Apparently different numeric designations too. My Cutlass is a 3167.

I am curious because my 62 Lemans was a convert, ser nbr 162P 22908 (unfortunately back in 62 I didnt copy off the body tag).

Also my ser nbr 22908 (-1001 starting nbr) implies 21907 produced but the prod nbrs show a lower total (2167 conv cpe..20,635)? Mine was sold in Apr 62 with 4+ more months of production time??? Or were ser nbrs assigned as the chassis came down the line regardless what body type it was??

I guess you could go nuts trying to find answers for questions like this nearly 50yrs after the fact

[Keith Seymore]

In general Serial numbers (the sequential portion of the VIN) were assigned as the vehicle came down the line, regardless of body type, with the following exceptions:

a) there was some slight mixing, based on part availability,etc, in the Pontiac body banking area

b) VINs were assigned sequentially within engine types (ie, V8s would get one sequence and 6 cylinders would get another). As a modern example, when I worked at the Truck Plant Chevrolet vehicles started with 100001 and were assigned sequentially after that; GMC vehicles started with 500001.

c) there was some variation between plants on how this was handled

I have asked John V to chime in, since he is quite knowledgable about this, and should be able to answer your case more specifically (not in general terms like I did).

K

[John V.]

Hello!

Prior to '65, the Pontiac VIN sequence no. did not distinguish between 6 cyl and V8.

In '64, the Pontiac VIN prefix format did distinguish 6 cyl vs V8, a 1st character 6 identified a 6 cyl model, a 1st character 8 identified a V8 model (only applied to the A body, all big Pontiacs were V8). But the sequence no. did not care, only one sequence set used.

Each Plant maintained there own sequence sets.

For '61-'63, I assume the nos. TempestFugit posted are a tabulation of totals from all Plants.

In '63, the Pontiac VIN format included an identifier for each Model Series so the VIN can determine whether the car is a Model Series 21 Tempest or a Model Series 22 Tempest Lemans. But only one sequence set was used at each Plant so there is no way to tell from the VIN alone how many of a particular Model Series was produced. And no engine type identifier was coded in the VIN.

In '61 & '62, the Pontiac VIN format was such that each Model Series at each Plant had its own sequence set.

It is unclear if every VIN that was assigned resulted in a "produced" car. But if I add the PMD reported VIN ranges for each Plant that produced the Tempest I get totals a little different from what TempestFugit listed.

1961
Pontiac Plant
21 Model Series - P1001 thru P84415 (subtract 1000, not 1001 since the 1st car was assigned sequence P1001), so 83,415 total
South Gate Plant
21 Model Series - S1001 thru S17648, so 16,648 total

Combined total of 100,063 vs. 100,783. That is a significant difference. Perhaps the body style totals are based on Fisher Body production nos., and perhaps include bodies that were destroyed during production and never had a VIN assigned or perhaps were export bodies or some other explanation for how Fisher may have produced more bodies than Pontiac assigned VINs to.

1962
Pontiac Plant
21 Model Series - P1001 thru P103009, so 102,009 total
South Gate Plant
21 Model Series - S1001 thru S22055, so 21,055 total
Kansas City Plant
21 Model Series - K1001 thru K20961, so 19,961 total

Combined total of 143,025 vs. 143,193. Closer but still not equal.

The Lemans did not become a separate Model Series until 1963, so in '62 you would only know from the VIN that the car was a 21 Model Series, you could not determine whether it included the Lemans trim option. Based strictly on the popularity of the Lemans models in '63, I would guess that the Lemans option was ordered on a large percentage of the '62 2167 Convertibles and the 2117 Sports Coupes. According to an old article on the '61-'63 Tempest that I have, they claim that 55,221 Tempests got the Lemans option in '62. That sounds like an exceedingly high percentage, so not sure I'd trust it. In '61, the Lemans option was only available for the 2117 Sports Coupe and I believe was much more rare, as I think it was only first offered at mid to late year. The article I have does not even indicate the Lemans option was offered until '62.

The sequence no. would be specific to the 21 Model Series in 1962 but not differentiated by Body Style.

62Lemans, your VIN indicates the car was produced at the Pontiac Plant. You say the car was sold in April, but that was apparently long after the car was produced. '62 Production kicked off around mid-Aug '61. I would estimate that 162P22908 was produced sometime around the 1st of Nov. 1961.

I'm not so familiar with Data Plate coding prior to '64, put there may have been some sort of coding on the Fisher Body Data Plate to identify the Lemans option in '61 & '62. And I suspect the Body No. would have been sorted by Body Style. Assuming all 3 Plants produced the Convertible and in proportion to the percentage of total Tempest production, I would guess your Body No. would have been around 3500, meaning about the 3500th Tempest Convertible Body Assembly produced at the Pontiac Plant for '62 out of a total of about 13,500 that would have been produced there. The rest about evenly split between the other two Plants.

Owing to the unique layout, the Tempest was more expensive to develop & produce than the Olds & Buick models but in the pecking order, had to be priced below them. So it was low profit. But whereas the Olds & Buick were just kinda small versions of their bigger cars, the Tempest really was unique. Just another Pontiac on my long list of models I wish I could own!

[Keith Seymore]

Thanks, John

Hey everyone, I stumbled across this today while looking for something else. Thought you all might be interested:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/1961-1...ac-tempest.htm

(Note: there are 11 little "sub articles").

[afx421]

i wish somehow someone had numbers on how many are left on the road registered.

John,

This has really got me curious. Re your paragraph:
Quote "62Lemans, your VIN indicates the car was produced at the Pontiac Plant. You say the car was sold in April, but that was apparently long after the car was produced. '62 Production kicked off around mid-Aug '61. I would estimate that 162P22908 was produced sometime around the 1st of Nov. 1961." unquote

The car surely didnt set on the dealers floor nor in his lot from Nov to Apr. Is there anywhere else it might have been all that time? The speedo only showed 4mi when I picked it up on Fri Apr 13th 1962. When I walked into the showroom on the 11th and picked it out I put $400 down that instant. On the 12th the salesman phone me and tried to subvert me to another Tempest because "that one had been spoken for". That guy however hadnt put money down tho and so he lost. I would guess it was in demand ???

Over the course of 9+ yrs I learned it was not a 'standard' 4cyl engine'. When I came to rebuild it, the cam was hotter than the manual referred to and was not listed in the Pontiac parts book, the pistons and heads were different and the distributor was different than other 62's I had seen and worked on.

6 mo is a long time for a car to sit unsold!!! So is this possible:
According to a Pa dealer that I know, in order to claim standard production 500 cars (of whatever model) had to be built. Those that didnt go to the special programs were parcelled out to different dealerships around the country. Again according to Boback Pontiac in Pa. Grady Pontiac was one of those dealerships. Could this car have been part of one of those progrms, not used but shipped around from place to place until it ended up in Newark Oh???

[wytnyt]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Thanks, John

Hey everyone, I stumbled across this today while looking for something else. Thought you all might be interested:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/1961-1...ac-tempest.htm

(Note: there are 11 little "sub articles").

keith,,very good article
thx for sharing

[63Banshee]

Originally Posted by afx421

i wish somehow someone had numbers on how many are left on the road registered.

Me too. If I had to guess I'd say ... 1/35th world wide (note "registered"). Most of those being 63s.

[TempestFugit]

Dave, are you saying that there could be 1/35 of 133,000 or over 3800 1963s left?! I could not disagree more. I know we're only dealing with opinions here... but I don't think there is anywhere near that number. I've been keeping an eye out for these cars at car shows, on the roads, POCI, Little Indians, Classical Pontiac, PY and through the grapevine for over Twenty years. I'd put the number closer to 500-600 cars Total for the planet for all three years in any condition. And I think I'm estimating high and would not be surprised if the number were half that. (add disclaimer about opinions here...)

PS Keith, thanks for that link.

[63Banshee]

I'm sticking with 10,000 global and driving. I shot on the high side just cause of how many I've seen in the states over the past 3 years and the fact I've bought to drivers myself out of Canada. You should see some of the crazy stuff they drive down here in the Texas woodlands. I spotted a couple more down under... I think the number has to be in the thousands. Will we ever find out? How many are know just on this forum?

I've got 4 driving right now. I have one more that will be a driver in 2 years. I parted another that was a driver, so I guess that counts against me. We won't count race cars that aren't street legal or at least not capable of being street legal. So, put me down for 5.

[azkeebler]

I too feel there are more than you all think out there. Just off the top of my head, here in the central valley there are at least 13 Tempest/ Lemans of these years running around. Two 62 convertibles in my small town alone, not to mention at least 4 '63 convertibles here.One '61 sport coupe lemans in Selma. Each of us know of others in the area. Four on craigslist in the area as it is. So, just in the 50 mile area, at least 13 running/registered, and over 80 that have been noted in local area salvage yards,fields, barns, etc..

I remember when Mike Smith from SAn Juan Capistrano, had his '62 convetible and '61 four door driver featured in one of the Pontiac magazines, the last known count then was only fifty nation wide photoworthy. Well.... looks like they are popping up out of the woodwork.

[John V.]

On the question of how many are left, I tend to agree that hobbyists underestimate the no.

A few years ago I came across research that was used as I recall for studying the impact of new auto emissions rules. It is kinda important to that work to figure out how many old cars remain on the road. IIRC, from vehicle registration records they graphed/calculated cars remaining by model year and you could get a feel for the progression.

For a specific model it would get a lot more complex. I expect a much higher percentage of Corvettes remain than mundane 4 dr. sedan Impalas as example.

I also expect that the loss of Tempest/Lemans was pretty predictable in the first few years. Once they got to be a certain age (maybe by 1983?), I would expect that the vast majority that survived to that point still remain because of collector interest, regardless of condition. A few might even have been resurrected from the graveyard. What the total is, I haven't a guess. But I have logged '69 Firebirds from restored to basket cases and am pretty amazed to have logged about 300 VINs without really trying. I can easily imagine 10 or 20 times that figure still remain, maybe more. I believe there were about 90,000 of them produced. You could argue that all '69 'birds were collectible while many '63 Tempest models would draw comparatively little collector interest, so a higher percentage of Firebirds probably remain. But, for example, I would be very surprised if fewer than 1000 '63 Tempest & Lemans convertibles remain.

62Lemans, I agree it was rare for a car to sit for 5+ months. But Pontiac did build ars for Zone Stock inventory. These were cars that were initially shipped to a Storage Lot (each Zone had one or more storage lots, such as leased space in a downtown parking facility or other warehouse). They were not ordered by any Dealer. Dealers in the Zone would be made aware of the rolling inventory and could claim cars from Zone Stock at which point they would be invoiced for them.

Cars could sit collecting duct in Zone Stock for days, weeks, or months. Example, many of the '69 Firebirds that were produced in Nov. '69 before the extended '69 'bird production was finally ended did not actually get sold to any Dealer until Feb. '70.

High option/high dollar cars were especially prone to sit unsold for an extended period. Another thing to think about, a convertible was always a tougher sell during the winter up north, so perhaps that may explain a car that sat for an extended time in Zone Stock. By April, this dealer may have decided to claim it as the weather started turning nice and that is when you found it.

You would have to pull the PHS documentation to see what it might show (I'm not familiar with the '62 docs). Unfortunately, we have no access to the Data Plate.

You are certain of the VIN? No chance it could have been something like 162P72908? I would estimate that VIN to have been built around the 1st of April.

Without the car to examine, all I can do is guess.

As far as the no. of cars to "claim standard production", I think you are talking about homologation according to some racing body's class rules for production class racing. The quantity varied by the sanctioning body and the class so the story is immediately a bit bogus and I'm not aware of any sanctioning body homologation for any Tempest but that is not my expertise. I just doubt that your car was anything to do with any homologation effort. AFAIK, even the SD progam did not require anything other than the cars had to be something anybody could order (which they kinda were) to go NHRA racing.

My guess is that the car simply went unsold or something is wrong with the VIN. The PHS docs might establish that possibility.

As to the engine, there were a number of optional engine choices. Do you have any specifics about the parts that you found unusual? Was it a hydraulic cam? 4 bbl? Flat top high compression pistons? Manual or Auto Trans? Any chance it was the 4 bolt main block?

What was different about the head? If it had a different p/n on the head casting, That is the most strange since I'm not aware of any alternate head casting being used for the production 195 during '61 or '62.

Some of the optional engines got a specific cam, distributor, and pistons that would have been different from the standard base engine.

Anyway, tell us more, maybe we can unravel it.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by John V.

... AFAIK, even the SD progam did not require anything other than the cars had to be something anybody could order (which they kinda were) to go NHRA racing....

That may be, but I recall that a quantity of 50 cars had to be produced for them to be allowed in the "stock" classes.

That's why the Swiss Cheese Cats and SD Tempest/Lemans were relegated to the "Factory Experimental" classes (ie, A/FX, B/FX) rather than the intended A/Stock and B/Stock ranks.

Incidently, we did run B/Stock with our '63 Super Duty Catalina (aluminum package, non Swiss Cheese car)....when we could get away with it...

K

John, Thanks for the additional info. The VIN is definitely 22908. I pulled the invoice out of my car memoribilia (I only wish Id saved more stuff) and took a pic for you. I just noticed today that they backdated the invoice to 4/10. My receipts are dated 4/11 and 4/12 for the $400 initial deposit and then the $600 pmt I made in cash the next day. ??



At this point with only notes from the margins of my shop manual to refer back to; the cam part nbr was not listed in the pontiac prts book, I had to put it back in after the rebuild in 69. I toyed with having a dupe ground but bucks got in the way. The cam was determined to be a little hotter than the 79Y. Had more duration both in/ex, more overlap and a bit more lift, yet -not quite- as much as the 87Z (??) It had the 2spd auto trans and a 1bbl carb. I didnt jot down the cc of the hds but it had flat top pistons. It -must- have cranked out more than the 140HP because I could take both 155 and 185HP F-85s and Ply/Dodge slant 6s.

Re Grady being a select dealer and getting choice vehicles. We bought 3 cars from him that did not run like others did. The 1st was a 58 plain jane chieftain with 2bbl carb that would turn 6.5sec to 60. Didnt have a track close by (nor dads approval) so dont know 1/4mi times/spd. My dad ran a 58 FI Bonneville one night between Columbus and Granville Oh. Up to 85mph he was ahead by 2 carlengths but a 2bbl will only breathe so much air. Ive had it up to 125 with lots of throttle still left to the floor. Something wasnt right!!! My Tempest was the 2nd.The 3rd was a a 65 Lemans my sister bought spec ord. And again Grady did us proud!
I drove two other 62 Tempest back in 62/63 and they WERE DOGS compared to mine!!
I still think my Lemans had some special Bunkey Knudsen gofaster parts in it.

Im gettin weepy with nostalgia for my baby.....

[Stuart]

I compared the numbers in the first post to the numbers listed in John Gunnell's book, "75 Years of Pontiac-Oakland", and found a few additions and corrections (in bold below):

1961 Tempest
2117 custom sport cpe....7,455 ok
2119 sedan 4d..............22,557 ok
2120 custom sdn 4d.....40,082 ok
2127 sprt cpe.................7,432 ok
2135 wgn 4d..................7,404 ok
2136 custom wgn 4d....15,853 ok
..Total..........................100,783 ok

1961 four cylinder cars: 98779 total, 26737 with manual transmissions
1961 eight cylinder cars: 2004 total, just 3 with manual transmissions

1962 Tempest
2117 spt cpe...............51,981 12319 custom 39662 lemans
2119 sdn 4d................37,430 16067 base 21373 custom
2127 cpe.....................15,473 ok
2135 safari wgn 4d.....17,674 ok
2167 conv cpe.............20,635 5076 custom 15559 lemans
..Total........................143,193 ok

1962 four cylinder cars: 141535 total, 28867 with manual transmissions
1962 8 cylinder cars: 1658 total, only 86 with manual transmissions

1963 Tempest
2117 deluxe spt cpe.....13,157 (8328/4cyl - 4829/8cyl) ok
2119 sdn 4d.................28,221 (7121/4cyl - 5687/8cyl deluxe 4cyl 11991 - deluxe 8cyl 3422) ok
2127 cpe......................13,307 (11338/4cyl 1969/8cyl) ok
2135 wgn 4d................10,135 (2501/4cyl - 1702/8cyl deluxe 4cyl 4396 - deluxe 8cyl 1536) ok
2167 deluxe conv cpe.....5,012 (3634/4cyl - 1378/8cyl) ok
..Total...........................69,832 ok


1963 LeMans
2217 spt cpe................47,701 (23227/4cyl - 22474/8cyl) ok, except total is 45701
2267 conv cpe.............15,957 (8744/4cyl - 7213/8cyl) ok
..Total..........................63,658 should be 61658


Total 1963..................133,490 should be 131490

1963 tempests: 69831 total, 16657 with manual transmissions
1963 lemans: 61659 total, 18034 with manual transmissions
note both these totals are each off by one, apparently a typo in the book


Total 61-63................377,466 should be 375466

[TempestFugit]

Originally Posted by John V.

... from vehicle registration records they graphed/calculated cars remaining by model year and you could get a feel for the progression.....

I agree with the concept, but I don't think the rule/progression applies when you are talking Transaxle Tempests.

The Transaxle Tempest is a technologically unique mainline US car and more often than not it's uniqueness has been detrimental to it's survivability. The tempest is also unique in that many of the surviving examples have had replaced that which made it unique.

In it's day, the Transaxle Tempest was roughly equivalent to the '60-'65 Falcon/Comet, '59-'64 Corvair, '59-'63 Lark, '60-'66 Valiant, and '61-'63 F-85/Cutlass. I believe those cars would share a similar survival rate with each other, the Tempests, on the other hand, suffered a greatly accelerated demise due to the effect of conventional wisdom over the years which put them in a category closer to something like a Yugo or a Trabant.

I've owned many cars over the years both new and old and always have had an assortment of 'special interest' or collector cars.... Years ago they were just called old clunkers by most people. Good or bad, most cars from the twentieth century all pretty much shared one thing in common.... they all were mechanically 'conventional', i.e. engine, drive-train, and suspension and were understood by all garages and mechanics. "Car-Guys" understood the pluses and minuses of them all and knew what you had to do to keep them running. Then came the Transaxle Tempest... as soon as 1964 rolled around, the Tempest was pretty much considered an albatross unlike anything I have ever experienced.

Most old cars eventually moved down the food-chain towards the crusher and were either keepers, or parts donors, on their way. Not so the Transaxle Tempests. From the late sixties on, conventional wisdom on the Tempest was that they were absolutely worthless beyond any other car you could name, even worse than the Corvair. (The Corvair became an orphan which helped it's collectability.) The only possible reason to keep a pre-64 Tempest was if it was a convertible, or you wanted to race it replacing the drive-train, either way, you had to be a glutton for punishment. Nothing was interchangeable so when it started to run funny - Nobody in his right mind would keep it in the face of overwhelming opinion/advice that it wasn't worth fixing.

I know firsthand how difficult it was to hang on to one once the timing chains started to stretch and you couldn't' easily tune them up, then they would start to shake and make strange noises that few could understand. In the 70's and 80's if you still had one running and it needed brakes or a muffler and you took it to a garage, as soon as it went up on a lift you would hear the cursing, swearing, and WTF!!! Then they would call the other mechanics over to see what they found.

By the 90's they had all but vanished. When the prices of 'Antiques' from the Fifties and Sixties started going up in value, the few remaining Tempests got a second look as conversation pieces.

It's true, that for some reason Southern California and Texas seem to have higher concentrations of Tempests than most other states followed by areas around Virginia, Pennsylvania and Alabama... go figure. But how many of them are still running their original configuration drive-trains? In eastern PA in the last ten years many people who know that I am interested in them have told me of "another Tempest" sighting and if I can't immediately figure who's it is, it usually turns out most likely to be the same car that I've seen but don't know the owner.

Over the past fifteen years, at the largest east coast car shows, i.e. Hershey and Carlisle only a handful of them have been spotted. At National POCI events a half dozen is a strong showing and some of those reappear each year. At '08 Norwalk there was one entered in the car show. When one of my sources told me of seeing a wagon in Oregon it turned out to be 63Banshee's. (PS Dave... how many of yours are local? Traveling to Canada and Nevada kind of proves my point doesn't it? (still green with envy!))

When that super duty coupe hit the news recently I figured surely now a bunch of unknown cars will pop up on eBay to cash in... still waiting...


PS Stuart, thanks for the additions and corrections.

[63Banshee]

Originally Posted by TempestFugit

I agree with the concept, but I don't think the rule/progression applies when you are talking Transaxle Tempests.

I don't either, but I still think the number of T4/T8s on the road is surprising.

Originally Posted by TempestFugit

The Transaxle Tempest is a technologically unique mainline US car and more often than not it's uniqueness has been detrimental to it's survivability. The tempest is also unique in that many of the surviving examples have had replaced that which made it unique.

In it's day, the Transaxle Tempest was roughly equivalent to the '60-'65 Falcon/Comet, '59-'64 Corvair, '59-'63 Lark, '60-'66 Valiant, and '61-'63 F-85/Cutlass. I believe those cars would share a similar survival rate with each other, the Tempests, on the other hand, suffered a greatly accelerated demise due to the effect of conventional wisdom over the years which put them in a category closer to something like a Yugo or a Trabant.

Yes, the transaxle is the survivability problem for these cars, but I've still seen a lot of survivors and I think I know why. They were cheap new and many were bought by families with no money for generations for new cars later on. I'm talking living in a step above a shack no money. Seen it from East Texas to Mississippi (haven't made it to GA yet). These cars, and others, are sitting under a carport collecting dust and only driven a few times per month. If I had interest in buying every 4 door Tempest I've seen for sale or not for sale I'd own about 20 of them right now. My 10K estimate might be high, but I doubt by much.

Originally Posted by TempestFugit

I've owned many cars over the years both new and old and always have had an assortment of 'special interest' or collector cars.... Years ago they were just called old clunkers by most people. Good or bad, most cars from the twentieth century all pretty much shared one thing in common.... they all were mechanically 'conventional', i.e. engine, drive-train, and suspension and were understood by all garages and mechanics. "Car-Guys" understood the pluses and minuses of them all and knew what you had to do to keep them running. Then came the Transaxle Tempest... as soon as 1964 rolled around, the Tempest was pretty much considered an albatross unlike anything I have ever experienced.

Most old cars eventually moved down the food-chain towards the crusher and were either keepers, or parts donors, on their way. Not so the Transaxle Tempests. From the late sixties on, conventional wisdom on the Tempest was that they were absolutely worthless beyond any other car you could name, even worse than the Corvair. (The Corvair became an orphan which helped it's collectability.) The only possible reason to keep a pre-64 Tempest was if it was a convertible, or you wanted to race it replacing the drive-train, either way, you had to be a glutton for punishment. Nothing was interchangeable so when it started to run funny - Nobody in his right mind would keep it in the face of overwhelming opinion/advice that it wasn't worth fixing.

The mindset of these low income families I speak of is to fix what you have as cheap as possible. They end up nickel and diming themselves into a deeper hole, but that's how they think. Anything to avoid buying a new car. If they have a Tempest with a good body and glass and a malibu with a busted windshield they'll pull the malibu driveline out and stick it in the Tempest. It's mental, but it happens a lot.

Originally Posted by TempestFugit

I know firsthand how difficult it was to hang on to one once the timing chains started to stretch and you couldn't' easily tune them up, then they would start to shake and make strange noises that few could understand. In the 70's and 80's if you still had one running and it needed brakes or a muffler and you took it to a garage, as soon as it went up on a lift you would hear the cursing, swearing, and WTF!!! Then they would call the other mechanics over to see what they found.

By the 90's they had all but vanished. When the prices of 'Antiques' from the Fifties and Sixties started going up in value, the few remaining Tempests got a second look as conversation pieces.

It's true, that for some reason Southern California and Texas seem to have higher concentrations of Tempests than most other states followed by areas around Virginia, Pennsylvania and Alabama... go figure. But how many of them are still running their original configuration drive-trains? In eastern PA in the last ten years many people who know that I am interested in them have told me of "another Tempest" sighting and if I can't immediately figure who's it is, it usually turns out most likely to be the same car that I've seen but don't know the owner.

Over the past fifteen years, at the largest east coast car shows, i.e. Hershey and Carlisle only a handful of them have been spotted. At National POCI events a half dozen is a strong showing and some of those reappear each year. At '08 Norwalk there was one entered in the car show. When one of my sources told me of seeing a wagon in Oregon it turned out to be 63Banshee's. (PS Dave... how many of yours are local? Traveling to Canada and Nevada kind of proves my point doesn't it? (still green with envy!))

I think the show numbers are low simply because these cars haven't gotten, and may never, any collector status recognition. There just isn't any history, good or bad, hype behind them. I don't even show my blue car and it's a damn nice ride. Car guys either don't pay attention or think "race car potential." The average Joe really digs them, thinks they would bring 15 to 25 grand at auction and might even know something about the transaxle, but that does nothing for the collector value or boost interest in showing them. I see some potential in the future for these cars as people get interested in some of the past and current projects, like the 2000 hp Lemans, twin turbo Hotrod magazine Lemans or SD eBay car. Maybe my Power Tour project will help too if I land a magazine shoot. Still, none of these are slant 4 auto transaxle cars.

... It's early. I'm not even sure what the hell my point is right now. I guess I'm saying you don't see them collected and shown because they are the bastard child of the 60's.

As far as my travels go, I have found as many locally as I have up north. I just have better luck finding low mileage original cars up north cause they are driven less. My semi-daily driver had under 60K miles on it when I drove it home from the great white north 4 years ago. It just turned 88K.

By the way, TF, I might be able to hook you up with a V8, a/c, ps, auto WAGON. It's a mess, but rare with potential. Would that get some of your natural color back?

Originally Posted by TempestFugit

When that super duty coupe hit the news recently I figured surely now a bunch of unknown cars will pop up on eBay to cash in... still waiting...

Since that sale I've been asked if my Sport Coupe is a SD car or if I even knew that it could be just cause it looks like one... Maybe I'll put it on eBay for 20 Large.
I know for sure my convertible is going on eBay soon if no one here shows interest...