[Engine-Ear]

guys, after following 63HO3x2421's thread and the ensuing discussion about water pumps, I called my local NAPA with the part number.

There are actually two different 4 bolt flange water pumps available:

1) 58-594 which is for "clockwise-turning hub" and
2) 58-298 which is for "counter-clockwise-turning hub"

HUH??? If you know WTH that is referring to, would you please chime in?!

$50 (+ $11 core) takes one home. No knowledge on the impeller (be it cast iron or sheetmetal).

[george kujanski]

I share your ???? Why would direction of rotation make a diff with respect to the flange, and do any of our (Pontiac) pumps turn in the opposite direction?

Perhaps the number is wrong and referring to something else.

George

[Engine-Ear]

Just got off the blower with my local NAPA man and learned some interesting info:

58-298 is meant to turn COUNTER-clockwise (I assume as viewed from the front of the engine), and it has a STAMPED impeller. A marine application?

58-594 is meant to turn CLOCKWISE (like EVERY American v8, right?) and has a CAST impeller.

Cardone is the NAPA rebuilder (around here, anyway) and their number (if anyone wants to investigate this CCW vs CW issue any further) is 888 280 8324.

the NAPA guy was very helpful and it solidifies my desire to patronize the auto parts stores with ash trays on the counters and dirty floors. They aren't trying to make you feel good, and they don't worry about bright and shiny... they sell -and KNOW- car parts.

Anyway, I am going to order one of each, take pix and return the stamped impeller version. I will post the results here when I do.

BTW, George, I sent you email to the address listed on your CP bio.

[Tim642957]

Originally Posted by Engine-Ear

.


the NAPA guy was very helpful and it solidifies my desire to patronize the auto parts stores with ash trays on the counters and dirty floors. They aren't trying to make you feel good, and they don't worry about bright and shiny... they sell -and KNOW- car parts.

It does help to have someone who knows about older cars and maybe even remembers them working the parts counter. These guys know how to use a parts BOOK. Most I've seen at the glitzy franchises are lost when they have to use something else other than their computer. I too have found the local NAPA jobber can get just about what I need mechanically.

[tom s]

FYI,Fabcraft has a alu 4 bolt water pump.I have been runnning one for almost 2 years with no problems.It is expensive.Tom

[63HO3x2Cat421]

Matt, before you even posted that i went to my local napa w/ part #518040 which is correct for my car. They have one coming in the morning, he couldn't tell me whether the impeller is cast or stamped but we'll see tomorrow. I never heard of a water pump turning counter, but will be sure to check that also. $39.95

[Engine-Ear]

so, I check my parts stash in the basement, and here is what I found...

Note: the pre-'95 NAPA p/n WAS W-247.

Look closely at the two impellers!

The used one is a leaker from a very original '62 I was driving every day from '92 to '94. The new one is a spare that I bought from NAPA in probably '94 to replace the one I used for my driver.

I am going to NAPA next to see what the impellers look like for the two p/ns they offer.

What do you guys think? I am no fluid-flow expert, but it sure looks like the impeller vane 'direction' is different!

[gregneun]

Maybe one of the models had a counterflow water pump,

Good luck,
Greg

[63HO3x2Cat421]

Matt, do they both turn clockwise or counter to each other like you stated they might earlier?

[Poncho60]

I just looked at the pump I removed from my 60 a couple of months ago, and it looks exactly like the new one with the long blades which are curving clockwise. The car cooled OK with it as far as I know---its was in the car since I've had it (2001)----course it just had the idiot light. Now with a good gauge, and a different pump just like the used one with the short cast blades on the impeller I'm running right around 190F. Not on any long runs, but it was pretty warm and humid here recently.

[Engine-Ear]

63HO, all Pontiacs engines rotate the same way, which is what confuses me.

Poncho60, I dunno, maybe it just doesn't matter...I will see if the 62 chassi book has a drawing of the fluid flow thru the motor.

[Bill Hanlon]

Both pumps are designed to turn the same direction.

I ran across a really good manual titled "Fans Reference Guide" by Ontario Power Generation while doing some research at work. I realize that this article is speaking to fans and air, but a fluid is a fluid and I see no reason it doesn't apply to water pumps as well. It discusses four types of Centrifugal Fans, which is basically what our water pumps are. They are Airfoil, Backward-inclined, Radial and Forward-curved. Some of them look "backwards" to dummies like me, but they all have advantages and disadvantages.

There is a pointer to the .PDF file for this document at
http://www.energyefficiency.org/eece...a?OpenDocument

Take a quick look at pages 7 thru 14 and notice that rotation direction is clockwise on all four fan types.

[mkoser]

Originally Posted by Bill Hanlon

Both pumps are designed to turn the same direction.

I ran across a really good manual titled "Fans Reference Guide" by Ontario Power Generation while doing some research at work. I realize that this article is speaking to fans and air, but a fluid is a fluid and I see no reason it doesn't apply to water pumps as well. It discusses four types of Centrifugal Fans, which is basically what our water pumps are. They are Airfoil, Backward-inclined, Radial and Forward-curved. Some of them look "backwards" to dummies like me, but they all have advantages and disadvantages.

There is a pointer to the .PDF file for this document at
http://www.energyefficiency.org/eece...a?OpenDocument

Take a quick look at pages 7 thru 14 and notice that rotation direction is clockwise on all four fan types.

Wow, I am going to revive this old thread....

My 8 bolt waterpump is dead. I can ONLY find a rebuilt/new pump with the "backwards" impeller on it.

A generous forum member is going to give me his spare pump, but I'd like to buy another for a spare....

So.... is this "reverse" impeller the "same" as the original. Will it still work? Has anyone installed one of these "backwards" impellers and had results (good or bad?)

I'd like to get the car back on the road this week.

Signed,"wrong impeller"

MK

[Tanksta]

I changed the water pump (8 bolt) on my 389 recently and I ran into the same thing. The impeller blades look backwards. I have had no issues with cooling with it though. Usually stays about 185-190. I did have to try a couple different ones though as the depth of the impellers was different. The first one I got hit the plate and wouldn't turn. I had to take my old one in and compare them to get the right one. Not sure what the deal with that was...I thought maybe manufacturer defect? But there was definitely about 1/4" difference.

[Blackcat]

A few yeara back I brought up the wrong impeller issue with the major supplier of rebuilt water pumps.
After providing documentation and talking with some not so Knowledgable engineers they agreed to produce the pumps with the correct impeller.
I provided a wonderfull thread about this that has long since been deleted.
In fact I still have one of the prototype pumps they sent me to check on my shelf!

[Engine-Ear]

Blackcat: "I provided a wonderfull thread about this that has long since been deleted."
why do you guys (moderators) delete threads that offer technical content?

"In fact I still have one of the prototype pumps they sent me to check on my shelf!"
how about using that digital camera and uploading some pix, Mr. Z?


Tanksta: I noticed about 1/8 to 1/4 inch gap difference between the used one and new one pictured in this thread. I think I need to get one of my beat up '62 T/C covers under the bandsaw blade and do some measuring.


Bill: thanks for the link!

[george kujanski]

In a recent thread, don't remember which forum, a member with a 389 8 bolt pump removed it and it had the same impeller design as the old one in the pix, with, i think, 5 vanes.

I don't think those are designed for opposite rotation, just a different vane design.

I'd say the curved design probably is the more efficient design, tho.

Matt, if you install the more modern-looking pump, it would be good to know if there is a cooling difference between the two.


Update: the posts referred to are the recent ones in the "chalk up one more" thread, by smamas. He has some pix of a new Cardone replacement pump with cast aluminum vanes.

George

[Blackcat]

I'll check on the pix That was actually a compupter ago.
As for the timing covers and cooling.
If you have the correct pump (Cast Iron impeller) with your Timin cover I've rarely had any problems.
Swotching to the 64-68 style is a slight improvment.
However if you use the stamped impeller you may be worse off then before.
The late 69- end of V-8 production covers offer the best flow for the buck.
However, Again I've found that the stamped steel pumps were 99% culprets in overheating and hot running.

[63HO3x2Cat421]

Finally replaced water pump today with a stamped impeller style, all they had in both local parts stores. Fit great until i tried to install pulley and fan...couldn't get any of those four bolts to thread. Took my old pump and the other new pump back to napa and showed salesman that my old bolts threaded in and out of the old pump w/ no problem, but not the new one. First time either of us saw this happen. The hole diameter was the same but looked like a finer thread. He ended up giving me new bolts that threaded in fine.

Hope this new one works as well as the older cast iron one that just blew. Temps ran 180-190 in the days before it failed. Meanwhile i'll try and find an original style for a spare.

[Jack Gifford]

It only takes one day for a NAPA store to get you the 58-594 pump (usually).