[gtoric]

This post deals with preserving and gathering Pontiac and Oakland items and memorabilia in a private, not-for-profit museum/study center setting. I have an unsettling feeling that we (the enthusiast hobby) need to actively pursue the preservation of the history of the cars we all love, because I see the history slowly vanishing. With the recent passing of John Sawruk, this subject has resurfaced in my thoughts. In my locally situated Flint-Lansing-Detroit triangle, there is a tremendous amount of auto-related information and history hiding in garages, basements, closets, attics, dresser drawers, and workshops. Much of this historically significant information routinely vanishes forever as guardians of this memorabilia pass away, and disinterested or uninformed heirs dispose of the "junk" that an enthusiast has spent a lifetime gathering. Someone, or some group of ones, needs to make a concerted effort to suck as much of this hidden treasure out into the open for the benefit of all. I can't stand by a let the scrapyards and recycling centers slowly destroy our heritage without at least broaching the subject.

During this time of crisis-driven austerity, the automakers are disposing of many historical items that are not generating revenue. Sometimes this means parting with irreplaceable documents and items for the simple sake of housecleaning; a shortsighted and insane course of action in my opinion. What GM does with their property is rightfully their own business. In some cases, historical items do find their way into the GM Heritage Center collection. That is a good thing, but, all in all, what happens to the General’s property is beyond our purview. My intentions focus on establishing a repository for the general public to contribute, donate, or make available for archival duplication all of the history that has escaped the General's grasp during the past century, and bring it together for the enthusiast and hobby in general to access.

Some of you may have read my previous post concerning the first Pontiac Motor Division retail store located in Pontiac, MI. Here again is a recent picture of the structure.

As of a few weeks ago, it is still on the market, and there are tenants, so a certificate of occupancy is a given. I believe that this location would serve as an ideal, best-of-all-worlds site for a dedicated Pontiac Oakland Museum and Research Center. It has the space and facility resources to house an extensive collection, including vehicles, of P-O history. This is only one possible site, but I think its historic significance, location and physical attributes make it one of the best available choices.

My intent here on the PY Forums site is to endeavor to determine if there is an interest in this wild-ass idea. What would it take to turn this scheme into reality?
Here are some preliminary thoughts:

Purpose: to establish a not-for-profit organization and facility intended to identify, preserve and make accessible to the public an historic record of the Oakland Motor Car Company and Pontiac Motor Division of General Motors Corporation. The main focus will be on the history of the Pontiac, Michigan, General Motors’ assembly facilities and local (SE Michigan) Pontiac-Oakland retail sales centers. Their histories, operations and influences on the local environs will be a central theme.

Location: vicinity of Pontiac, MI

Facility Needs: display area for museum, storage area/study area for paper archives; offices for curators, restroom(s), workshop, meeting room (?)

Personnel Needs: Board of Directors (3 or 5), curator, one or more assistant curators.

Content of Museum: vehicles of interest, memorabilia, paper records and documentation, sales and service material, historical items of interest.

Probable Actions:
o Confirm interest and need for such an organization
o Identify and recruit qualified personnel and service providers like: tax and business lawyers, historians, fundraisers, designers, and architects.
o Establish method of fund raising to implement revenue stream for implementing establishment of facility and faculty
o Identify and acquire suitable facility site
o Staff organization
o Organize museum layout and content design
o Acquire museum content
o Determine funding for ongoing operations expenses such as payroll, utilities, taxes, acquisitions

Is there any interest in this project? My entire lifetime of collecting would be the first donation to such an establishment.

These currently less than favorable economic conditions will not last forever. There are some financially successful individuals in our part of the hobby. Such an organization is also a viable tax shelter/write-off. I foresee initital funding as the most important and earliest hurdle to overcome.

Your thoughts…

Eric

[Stuart]

That's pretty much what POCI does already:

"POCI Library - Introduction
The POCI Library is a massive collection of Pontiac, Oakland and GMC literature, unlike any other anywhere else. It contains valuable technical data (manuals, engineering reports) as well as marketing and sales information (brochures, posters, photos, material samples, etc.).

The POCI Library in housed in and administered by the:

AACA Library and Research Center
501 West Governor Road
PO Box 417
Hershey, PA 17033"

[gtoric]

Originally Posted by Stuart

That's pretty much what POCI does already:

"POCI Library - Introduction
The POCI Library is a massive collection of Pontiac, Oakland and GMC literature, unlike any other anywhere else. It contains valuable technical data (manuals, engineering reports) as well as marketing and sales information (brochures, posters, photos, material samples, etc.).

The POCI Library in housed in and administered by the:

AACA Library and Research Center
501 West Governor Road
PO Box 417
Hershey, PA 17033"

Like Keith states above, this collection would encompass everything from original dealer signage, to promo models, to any and all literature, to cars and trucks, tools from the factory. I've even got a cafeteria tray from one of the buildings at the plant. Anything and everything would be put on display. And believe me, there is a lot of "stuff" in this area to display. All paperwork would be available for research by anyone, just like the POCI establishment, but I can see engineering drawings and prototype documents turning up in this area that are not in that collection in Hershey. Anything that someone has saved and now wants to contribute to the museum and research center would be welcomed. And, it never hurts to have duplicate items in more than one geographic location.

[carbking]

Originally Posted by gtoric

All paperwork would be available for research by anyone, just like the POCI establishment, but I can see engineering drawings and prototype documents turning up in this area that are not in that collection in Hershey.

There is a LOT of stuff that is not in the collection in Hershey!

Jon.

[Steve Barcak]

I do wish you well with your venture but, did you know there will be a Pontiac museum in Arizona?
I have been planning it for over a decade. It was first going to be on my 5 acres in Maricopa but, have decided it better to be in a cooler location.

The new location is near Lyman lake state park on hwy 191 near the New Mexico border, about an hours drive south of I-40. This is between Springerville and St Johns, Az.

It will be on 12.6 acres and I have already bought the land and have the county permits to build it as of last summer through the Apache county board of supervisors.

The museum will focus primarily on the V-8 years but, will also cover pre 1955 too and well as Pontiacs change and demise after 1981.

So far, much memoribilia as well some some of the rarest and most valuable performance and racing related items have been collected as well as every year and most models of Pontiacs from 1955-1981. There are also about 450 salvage and restorable Pontiacs in the collection.

I have been asking for help in this venture for some time. The land is bought, the building will be bought and paid for to, as I said above, the county has approved my permits for this venture too. Also, I have the cars.
What is needed is help with restorations and donations of more memoribilia for this museum.

more info on my site as my signature has said for some time.

As soon as my 5 acres sells in Maricopa, the building will be put up.

Many of the Pontiacs restorations have already been started including a '65 GTO which a California school shop has offered to do.

here is the list of the cars collected already, it is a good variety of what Pontiac built.

'55 Chieftain 2 dr ht
'56 Chieftain 2 dr wagon
'57 Chieftain 2dr sedan
'58 Chieftain 2 dr sedan, and possibly a 2 dr Star Chief
'59 Bonneville 2 dr ht
'60 Catalina 2 dr ht
'61 Bonneville 4 dr ht
'61 Catalina conv
'61 Catalins 2dr ht
'61 Catalina Safari
'62 Catalina Safari
'62 Catalins 2 dr ht
'63 Catalina conv
'64 Catalina 2 dr ht
'64 GTO 2 dr ht
'65 Catalina Safari
'65 GTO 2 dr sedan
'66 GTO 2 dr ht
'67 Catalina Safari
'67 GTO 2 dr ht
'67 Firebrid 400 ht
'68 GTO 2 dr ht
'69 GTO 2 dr ht
'69 Bonneville Safari
'70 Exectutive Safari
'70 Bonneville Brougham
'70 GTO conv
'70 GTO Ram Air IV ht
'71 GTO 455HO ht
'72 Grand Safari
'72 Bonneville 2 dr ht
'72 GTO 455HO WW5 ht
'72 Formual 400
'73 Trans Am
'73 Formula 455
'74 Formula 400
'74 Trans Am
'75 Trans Am
'75 Catalina 2 dr ht
'76 Trans Am
'76 Catalina Safari
'77 Trans Am blackbird
'78 Trans Am gold special edition
'79 Formula 400
'79 Trans Am back bird
'70 Trans Am 400
'80 Trans Am indy pace car
'81 Trans Turbo

In addition, there will be many engine displays starting with a restored 287, a 195 tempest and a 1981 Turbo 301 ( beginning and end of era).
Chassis displays including the 61-63 Tempest al independent suspension ( Motor trends car of the year)

Some of the rare items in include- The only known original complete M/T HEMI Pontiac engine, some vintage 60s funny car bodies and much more.

This is in addition to - sale flyers, post cards, sales brochures, dealer items, promotional radio records and on and on.

It is nice to see others offering to help you. Will anyone help me? So far, I have done this on my own for the most part with my money and time.

Thank you,
Steve

Steve
Hosting 11th annual Pontiac Heaven, show, swap, drags, party and all around good time. Saturday April 4, 2009 at Speedworld near Phoenix, Az
more info- www.pontiacheaven.org
Also hosting- 7th annual Nostalgic Show and Go! and swap. Drags, cool car show, parade, special exhibitions, gassers, rails, stockers, customs and much more. coming Sunday April 5, 2009 to Speedworld. Phoenix, Az -This is Arizonas longest continuest running nostalgic event, our 7th year! www.nostalgicshowandgo.org

Steve

[mzbk2l]

I'd still like to see one in Michigan. I grew up in the hometown of Ransom Eli Olds and the Oldsmobile Motor Company (as well as REO Motors). The R.E. Olds Museum downtown doesn't have a huge amount of space, but they do have an incredible amount of history crammed in there. It's nice to be able to go and see the displays right in the town where the history was actually made.

I'd be interested in supporting such a venture for Pontiac in the Pontiac area.

[The Champ]

Eric

I love your idea, and would support it too (within my means).

Many years ago, you helped me sort through some of the material that I obtained from my fathers garage, and part of your collection came from that. I still have boxes of Pontiac literature that I just can't throw out, but it's not stuff that I personally want.

The biggest item recovered from that stash of 8 - 10 boxes of Pontiac, Buick, GMC and AMC literature for me was my dad's 1964 Pontiac Dealers Sales Manual - the only item from 1964 - to go with my 1964 GTO. That is a truly cherished possession that will stay with the car when I give it to my grandson.

But the other stuff??? I'd like to find someone that really wants it.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Stuart

That's pretty much what POCI does already:

"POCI Library - Introduction
The POCI Library is a massive collection of Pontiac, Oakland and GMC literature, unlike any other anywhere else. It contains valuable technical data (manuals, engineering reports) as well as marketing and sales information (brochures, posters, photos, material samples, etc.).

The POCI Library in housed in and administered by the:

AACA Library and Research Center
501 West Governor Road
PO Box 417
Hershey, PA 17033"

Originally Posted by The Champ

Eric

I love your idea, and would support it too (within my means).

Many years ago, you helped me sort through some of the material that I obtained from my fathers garage, and part of your collection came from that. I still have boxes of Pontiac literature that I just can't throw out, but it's not stuff that I personally want.

The biggest item recovered from that stash of 8 - 10 boxes of Pontiac, Buick, GMC and AMC literature for me was my dad's 1964 Pontiac Dealers Sales Manual - the only item from 1964 - to go with my 1964 GTO. That is a truly cherished possession that will stay with the car when I give it to my grandson.

But the other stuff??? I'd like to find someone that really wants it.

Gentlemen - I think Eric's idea encompasses more than just literature.

He is talking about personal memorabilia, like GTO tie tacks/cufflinks, 30 year service awards, Employee badges, 1/25 scale promotional models, dealership signage, dealer gifts and trinkets, patents or sales awards, etc. Things that an employee/enthusiast might collect over a lifetime that an uninformed spouse or family member might pitch.

And, if the original Pontiac Retail Store is used, we'd be saving a building, too.

K

[gtoric]

Originally Posted by The Champ

Eric

I love your idea, and would support it too (within my means).

Many years ago, you helped me sort through some of the material that I obtained from my fathers garage, and part of your collection came from that. I still have boxes of Pontiac literature that I just can't throw out, but it's not stuff that I personally want.

The biggest item recovered from that stash of 8 - 10 boxes of Pontiac, Buick, GMC and AMC literature for me was my dad's 1964 Pontiac Dealers Sales Manual - the only item from 1964 - to go with my 1964 GTO. That is a truly cherished possession that will stay with the car when I give it to my grandson.

But the other stuff??? I'd like to find someone that really wants it.

Mike, you know that I'd give that stuff a good home.

[Lloyd-TX]

A fine idea, Eric!

I like the idea of a central repository for ALL historical Pontiac information and memorabilia.

Like The Champ, I would support this project, within my means. Let me know what I can do to help.

[Lloyd-TX]

Sounds to me like Steve and Eric could collaborate on this effort.

However, I can see the benefit of having the collection in Michigan.

[Steve Barcak]

"However, I can see the benefit of having the collection in Michigan."

I can also see that and , as I said, I wish him well with the venture. Having a historical building would be wonderful but, costs? permits? zoning? ???

Certainly, there is room for both projects both in Mi and in Az. Mine here is well underway with land, memorabilia and cars purchased...and permits already approved. It would be hard to put a dollar and hour amount on how much of my life I have invested towards this goal of a Pontiac Museum.

The first phase of the building is 5,000 suqare feet witth almost unlimited room on the property to expand as needed. As soon as this 5 acres of industrial property here in Maricopa sells, it will be built.

Anyone interested in helping me, let me know. this is seriousand already started, not in the 'thought' phase.
Steve

Steve
Hosting 11th annual Pontiac Heaven, show, swap, drags, party and all around good time. Saturday April 4, 2009 at Speedworld near Phoenix, Az
more info- www.pontiacheaven.org
Also hosting- 7th annual Nostalgic Show and Go! and swap. Drags, cool car show, parade, special exhibitions, gassers, rails, stockers, customs and much more. coming Sunday April 5, 2009 to Speedworld. Phoenix, Az -This is Arizonas longest continuest running nostalgic event, our 7th year! www.nostalgicshowandgo.org

[Lloyd-TX]

Steve, count me in.

Let me know what I can do to help. I'll do what I'm able to.

[mike nixon]

Not to rain on anyone's parade but I was involved in this locally with an antique tractor / engine club for a while.

Before you get really deep in this you need to realise that funding is not easy to come by and the cost of maintaining a venture such as this is huge. Bldg /exhibit /grounds maintenance eat a lot of funding in a hurry.

I think it's a good idea and that facilities in each location mentioned above may actually be beneficial.

What I would like to see in such a collection may vary from the normal thought process tho. I'd like to see more of the common cars added, not just GTO's and Trans Ams. I get so tired of looking at those that it's not funny. The longer I'm in this hobby the more I appreciate, sedans, wagons and low line cars that you just don't see anymore. Assembly tools from the factory lines would also be interesting to me.

Contact your state tourisim buerea and ask to whom you'd contact in regards to info regarding this plan. The meeting will probably open your eyes to the magnitude of these ventures.

Good luck to you all. I think they're great ideas.

Mike

[gtoric]

Steve, I applaud your efforts and wish you every success! Like I said before, more duplication in entirely separate locations means that the chances of losing some of the rarer pieces of memorabilia are lessened. You will have an entirely different local geographic area to draw from. I'm not insinuating that contributions to your museum will come only from the southwestern U.S., but people will be more willing to deliver items to you, or even consider donating items to your museum, if they are close by. Word of mouth is most effective when it's coming from your neighbor.

At this point in time, my endeavor is only a pipe dream. Without some serious financial backing it will not even move out of the what-if stage. All I've got going for me is the rich heritage in this area, and perhaps an historic location to house the collection and research center. That is the heritage that I want to help save from oblivion. If a brick-and-mortar entity can be established, word of mouth will draw all sorts of stuff out from the surrounding area. It's this "priceless stuff" that I want to identify and display and share with fellow enthusiasts. Without an established organization to take possession of this history, ignorant owners, uninformed family members or just plain overwhelmed heirs will continue to set this stuff out to the curb to disappear forever. I know of at least three stashes of Pontiac memorabilia that that would make a very impressive core for a memorabilia museum. With enthusiasts who were actively involved with the hobby for over 50 years now beginning to retire and pass on, a lot of history is being lost right now.

Steve, you've got a great start with you lifetime's worth of collecting. Once you get the building up, I'm sure that you will start getting calls asking if you want "Dad's box of old Pontiac things." Heck, if my exploratory efforts don't pan out, I know where my "stuff" will end up when I'm gone. You'll just have to come and get it.

I encourage everyone to support Steve's effort. My dream may not amount to anything, but until it does, Steve's got his act together right now.

It doesn't matter where Pontiac memorabilia ends up, as long as it doesn't vanish for lack of a guardian. Save and share our history!

[Lloyd-TX]

VERY well said, Eric.

[carbking]

I am going to offer a somewhat dissenting opinion.

First, I applaud Steve's effort and Rick's dream. I share both.

But as to the original building/museum; I am firmly convinced that the best way to save the history of anything is either for the company responsible (in this case GM) to provide the museum OR the material to reside in private hands. Museums are to dependant on the whims of their directors to trust with irreplaceable items!

Holley carburetor now has in their possession several one of a kind prototypes from the 1920's and 1930's that a customer and friend of mine SAVED FROM THE JUNKPILE for me when some young college graduate at a very huge and well-known museum in Michigan decided they were no longer needed. My friend called me, and I told him to save them, carefully wrap, and ship them to me; and I reimbursed his expenses. I kept some and forwarded the rest to a good friend at Holley (they were just beginning a Holley museum). We got lucky that time.

I could relate other tales of this type but won't bore you. As stated above, my opinion is put it in private hands!

Rick and Steve, give me a call some time. 573-392-7378 (9-4 Mon Wed central time). Or send me a number I can call you.

Jon.

[Steve Barcak]

Carb king- I don't know you but, I can do better than call you. I can meet you personally. I have Pontiacs stored in the Eldon area that need to be picked up in the next few months. I will contact you to arrange a meeting if you have time.

Thank you all for thr encouragement and nice words. Of course, there is room for more than 1 Pontiac museum. Geeez, a Pontiac museum in Pontiac, or near by, would be wonderful.
I'll continue to do what I am doing here. It IS a commitment. It has cost me many things so far.

Mike- As my list states, my collection is NOT all rare and more popular cars. Along with GTOs and TAs you see many statio wagons and some 4 doors too. 'Regular' Pontiacs from the era were also GREAT cars, not just the GTOs.

Looking back, I see I missed a few, there are so many and I just did that post off of the top of my head. Add '61 Star Chief 4 dr sedan, '73 GTO and '74 GTO hatchback.

The oldest Pontiac thing I have at this time is a 1941 6cyl flathead that will be cosmetically restored and displayed on an engine stand.

The museum will expand as time goes on. I would also like to have an 'Americana' portion with related items in cluture related to a certain cars era- toys, bicycles, games, music, politics, military, historical related to the era.

attached to the building will be my Pontiac hot rod shop where some of the fastest/quickest Pontiac powered vehicles on earth will reside- this includes drag racing, water and land speed record. also mileage related development engines and cars. All this will show just how great the Pontiac V-8 engine really is. Future generations must know and have references.

I've explained to the county supervisors while applying for my permits that this will be a nonprofit museum and will not be open daily but, more by appointment or possibly a certain schedule like every Friday or every other Saturday, etc. I envision schools having field trips to the Pontiac Museum, I see car rallys and related get togethers too. Who knows the possibilities.
I have the room to do it and the counties blessings....and the will.
This will be the biggest undertaking of my life.

If a Pontiac museum got set up in Michigan, we could 'link' to each other as other museums do. This referral only helps spread the word to help both museums.

Steve
Steve
Hosting 11th annual Pontiac Heaven, show, swap, drags, party and all around good time. Saturday April 4, 2009 at Speedworld near Phoenix, Az
more info- www.pontiacheaven.org
Also hosting- 7th annual Nostalgic Show and Go! and swap. Drags, cool car show, parade, special exhibitions, gassers, rails, stockers, customs and much more. coming Sunday April 5, 2009 to Speedworld. Phoenix, Az -This is Arizonas longest continuest running nostalgic event, our 7th year! www.nostalgicshowandgo.org

[gtoric]

Originally Posted by carbking

...as to the original building/museum; I am firmly convinced that the best way to save the history of anything is either for the company responsible (in this case GM) to provide the museum OR the material to reside in private hands. Museums are to dependant on the whims of their directors to trust with irreplaceable items!...As stated above, my opinion is put it in private hands!
Jon.

Jon--my intended aim with the Retail-Store-headquartered concept is to purchase or lease the property in order to house a private, non-GM/PMD, backed or controlled venture. I like this particular property simply because it is: 1) available, 2) a piece of Oakland/PMD history in and of itself, 3) a piece of real estate that fits the bill for the purpose I have in mind, and 4) is physically situated in a perfect location to draw upon the hidden treasures scattered within the home turf of GM and Pontiac.

I want to rescue/salvage/save all of the Oakland/PMD divisional and local dealer network history of this region as is reasonably possible. The items I intend to gather and collect are those that are currently publically available, that is, items that have already made their way into the hands of the masses. If GM wishes to donate items, that would be great, but I would not want to take possession of items that GM owns. I don't intend to hoard these items, I intend to make them available to everyone for the benefit of everyone. To that end, a not-for-profit would be established to oversee its operation.

I fully understand that this will be no frivolous adventure. It will take a tremendous amount of volunteer effort and private funding. The main reason I am airing this proposal here is that there exists on this forum some funding sources. I'd like to gauge the likelyhood that several members with the means, the dedication to the marque, and who share my vision will step up and offer a solution to the initial barrier that needs to be hurdled in this project--funding.

Steve--I love your approach. Have you ever visited Don Garlits' Drag Racing Hall of Fame in FL? His privately funded and administered facility is exactly the direction I see your efforts headed. He started with one good sized building and has added structures over the years. The HoF is vehicle-centric, but has a large amount of memorabilia displayed in and around the cars. All in all, a well executed concept from which you could pattern many of your central themes. This is another one of my favorite museums.

[citydesk175]

From my talk with some curators from the Military museums, the most important part of running a museum is correctly identifying the object at hand and then cataloging each one correctly and updating a central database (Carlisle Barracks CMH) so that everybody knows what everybody has and how to identify a similar object when it comes in. (Do the work once)

For example there is a central database for Libraries that allows you to look up a book in Google then Google takes you to the book listing in the database, which in turn tells you (if you have entered your location) which libraries have the book in order of closest to farthest from you.

Plus TTU>EDU has a vietnam archive that will scan your donated images or slides and send you back a disk of those scans. This policy helps loosen up things that otherwise would not be donated.

Eric,,,,, Maybe we can go together to the HC or take a team.

regards
ralph