[JLMounce]

Call me a believer.

For 10 years or so and specifically in the last 3 years I have really chased performance issues with the braking of my Firebird. It had basic stock type components on it to create a 4 wheel power disc system.

It consisted originally of a single 9" diaphragm power booster which clamped GM D52 calipers on 11" rotors in the front and GM Metric calipers on 11" rotors in the rear. In this configuration, the braking was adequate. It would stop decently, but never really wanted to lock up the wheels.

In 2022 the power booster failed and the decade + aged calipers had started to leak and really just looked like crap.

Last year I replaced the calipers with Wilwood variants of the D52 and Metric calipers and had a rough time with it. This is what led me to discover the power booster was failed/failing. I had determined through speaking with several different people that the booster just wasn't adequate for the type of vacuum I was pulling. On the edge, so the single 9" diaphragm just wasn't adding enough pressure to the system.

I opted for a TuffStuff dual 9" designed around the C3 braking system. With the massive 6.28" front and 4" rear piston areas, combined with the larger power booster, the car stopped very well, now able to lock the wheels when needed. However the pedal feel as atrocious. The booster worked so well that it slammed all the pressure into the calipers as soon as you touched the pedal. Very little firmness from the pedal and zero feedback. It was like the first time you try left foot braking and your foot is asleep at the same time.

You can imagine, in traffic this was pretty terrible to deal with. You were going or stopping, not really anywhere in between.

I've been wanting to change the wheels and tires on the car for a while for a bit different look and figured if I was going to do that, now would be the time to re-engineer the brake system, in case my track widths changed.

With a bit of trepidation, I opted to go with an upsized Wilwood package in the front and rear and matched it with a 15/16" manual master. The system consists of a 12.88" front rotor with the Forged Narrow Superlight 6 piston caliper in the front and a 12.19" rear rotor with the Forged Dynalight 4 piston caliper in the rear.

I was able to get the system bled out and the pads bedded in yesterday and got some drive time in. I can tell you, I should have done this years ago.

Yes, the pedal effort is increased, but not in a bad way. It's nothing like a hard pedal with a bad power booster where it's just needless hard with no stop. You feel the pads come on to the rotor and you can feel the adhesion of the tires to the ground. It's super easy to modulate what you want the car to do. Actuation is quite linear and the pedal is always doing what you expect it to do and how you expect it to feel.

If you're on the fence about going with a manual setup over a power setup, the only thing that might sway me away from manual at this point is if the car is daily driven in stop and go traffic. The increased pedal firmness isn't that much of an increase. In fact I don't think my pedal is much firmer than the pedal on my wife's '13 Corvette. The feel is just so good as to override any issues with the firmer pedal.

As an added bonus, I now have zero vacuum accessories that I need to worry about having an engine support.

[JSchmitz]

I did similar many years ago and love it! I hated having the factory booster and, of course, 4-wheel drums. I went with manual master and 12" GM discs in front. I think I have 15/16" master also. Pedal effort is absolutely fine. It's very linear and predictable.

[b-man]

Originally Posted by JSchmitz

I did similar many years ago and love it! I hated having the factory booster and, of course, 4-wheel drums. I went with manual master and 12" GM discs in front. I think I have 15/16" master also. Pedal effort is absolutely fine. It's very linear and predictable.

I did the same using a 1-1/16” master, pedal effort was fine and braking was predictable.

Manual brakes are great.

[Greg Reid]

Would it be at all advantageous to go with a bigger than stock MC and keep the drums? My '66 has manual drums which I may keep but I want to upgrade to at least a dual master.

[Scarebird]

If you go dual - go 1967; same bore size so it will match your drums fine.

Sorry about the giant size...

[Murf]

Originally Posted by Scarebird

If you go dual - go 1967; same bore size so it will match your drums fine.

Sorry about the giant size...

Hi Scarebird! Partial threadjack but.
I’ve got LS Camaro discs on all 4 wheels on my wife’s 65. I have a leaking M/C and a bad booster right now.

Could you recommend a reasonably priced M/C for manual brakes? Also what M/C & booster combo would you recommend if I stay with power brakes?

I’m have a 1 inch M/C with the booster now. Is that wrong.

Thanks,
Murf

[59safaricat]

Drove manual brake cars for years and never bothered me. Just be aware when going back to a vehicle with power brakes. I drove my brothers truck with power brakes and him in the passenger seat and almost put him through the windshield on my first stop.

[65madgoat]

Swapped out a hydroboost for manual set up a decade ago. LOVE THE MANUAL BRAKES. Only way to go!

[JSchmitz]

Slight correction. I have 1" bore master: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/WIL-260-8555P

This is a very nice piece! A little pricey...

[Scarebird]

Waaaay too much.

1974-80 GM 1/2 ton manual w/1" bore. Looks factory, works factory. $40 https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...t=1836&jsn=914

[JLMounce]

The Wilwood masters are spendy. I did go with one, primarily for the look. A factory master is more than adequate as scarebird points out.

[george kujanski]

Scaebird...that master looks like the front brake connection is the rear of the master vs. the OEM in the front. or am I wrong?

george

[Scarebird]

Correct. Mid-70's GM did a flip-flop on the reservoirs for simpler valving.

Some masters are still being made for the older style but more expensive and less effective.

Drum/drum work fine too but watch the fluid level.

[Greg Reid]

Originally Posted by Scarebird

Correct. Mid-70's GM did a flip-flop on the reservoirs for simpler valving.

Some masters are still being made for the older style but more expensive and less effective.

Drum/drum work fine too but watch the fluid level.

How do you recognize that by looking and if I used the pictured master, front reservoir is for the rear and visa versa?

[Scarebird]

Originally Posted by Greg Reid

How do you recognize that by looking and if I used the pictured master, front reservoir is for the rear and visa versa?

Bigger rez is for fronts.

[Murf]

Originally Posted by Scarebird

Bigger rez is for fronts.

I’ve got a couple more basic questions if you have time.

1. What exactly is the difference between disc / disc vs disc / drum master cylinders?

2. Is there any correlation between the fitting sizes on the master cylinder and where they go? I.E. does the bigger fitting always go to the rears, which usually have a larger line?

Thanks,
Murf

[Scarebird]

What year Camaro is this?

[Murf]

Originally Posted by Scarebird

What year Camaro is this?

2000-2002. 4 wheel discs. From what I could find when I put it together they used 1” bore M/C & all had power brakes. I used an aftermarket 1” bore M/C with a booster.

It’s leaking now & I thought I might go manual when I fix it.

Thanks
Murf

[RocktimusPryme]

Thats interesting. Ive never been happy with the 4 wheel disc setup in my 67. Now mine already is manual and they work fine, but I feel like the effort is too high. Ive always been worried that if a deer ran out in front of me I would have to put my foot through the floorboard to get it to stop in a hurry.

IIRC I have the 1" corvette type (equal reservoir) MC that came with my kit from Right Stuff for my original disc drum, setup. (I did swap the proportioning valve when I changed to discs)

Ive been wondering if I switched to a 15/16th" MC made for manual disc/disc if it would make a notable difference. I dont want to do it for no reason because I loathe bleeding brakes.

[Scarebird]

Murf - the power 2000 master is 1" bore; I am thinking you will need a smaller bore for manual but I do not know of a good one stock.