[azmusclecar]

I have a 3 speed Saginaw in my Tempest. Original equipment.

I found a 4 speed Saginaw that came out of a Vega.

I have a classic Hurst Competition shifter AND bracket that came off a
4 speed Saginaw from the 60's.

The mounting bracket will NOT bolt up to the 4 Speed tailhousing

The mounting bracket WILL bolt to the 3 speed tailhousing.

Does anyone know if I can take the tailhousing from the 3 speed and place it on the 4 speed?

I know it's a long shot but before I go trying to find parts to fit I always like to know if a swap can work.

The reason I chose the Vega tranny was for the 3.50 first gear in the four speed to help get the Tempest rolling and still keep it's 3.08 rear gear ratio.

Thanks to anyone that can help.
AZ

If you look up Saginaws you will see they make a model 456 and 441 and you can see the different tailhousings and how the shifter bolted to it. I am trying to use the old school Hurst Competition Shifter bracket.

[Jeff Hamlin]

It's my understanding that the inner assembly of the 3-spd differs vastly from the 4-spd and would require an almost complete tear-down just to remove it.
And then I'm still not sure it can be used. Your best bet IMO would be to get a HURST Universal shifter mount.
IIRC these will bolt to the main case thus allowing you to use your shifter.

I would find a local old school trans shop and get their input.

[azmusclecar]

Originally Posted by Jeff Hamlin

It's my understanding that the inner assembly of the 3-spd differs vastly from the 4-spd and would require an almost complete tear-down just to remove it.
And then I'm still not sure it can be used. Your best bet IMO would be to get a HURST Universal shifter mount.
IIRC these will bolt to the main case thus allowing you to use your shifter.

I would find a local old school trans shop and get their input.

Thanks for the input Jeff. I'll look in to the Hurst Universal Mount as well....

It seems just from my limited knowledge the length of the unit didn't change much. I figured (which usually is not a good thing) if the gear case is the same from the 3 to 4 speed that the 4 speed just has another gear packed in the case and the tailhousing is pretty much the same for both.

I always try to find the easy fix, and swapping tailhousings looked to be the easiest. I didn't want to pull the 3 speed out and insert the 4 speeds in to the gear case. Just the tailhousing swap.

I have the 4 speed on the bench just looking at how it works. Very interesting as you can watch the mechanisms engage and disengage.

Thanks again........

[george kujanski]

Back in the day, I was tired of the 3 speed in my lemans Sprint with 3.90 axle because of the buzz at speed and pinging from a stop using 93 octane when it used to require 100 octane.

I found a Borg-warner 5 speed T-50 with overdrive and bolted it up. It was used in GM cars in the mid to late 70's behind 4, 6's and the Olds 265 V8. It has an integral shifter which would fix your shifter problems and a low first gear to get you going.

Really enjoyed driving that car.

If you can find one, they are now fairly rare. I had to modify the crossmember and shorten the driveshaft, but otherwise bolted right up.

George

[azmusclecar]

Originally Posted by george kujanski

Back in the day, I was tired of the 3 speed in my lemans Sprint with 3.90 axle because of the buzz at speed and pinging from a stop using 93 octane when it used to require 100 octane.

I found a Borg-warner 5 speed T-50 with overdrive and bolted it up. It was used in GM cars in the mid to late 70's behind 4, 6's and the Olds 265 V8. It has an integral shifter which would fix your shifter problems and a low first gear to get you going.

Really enjoyed driving that car.

If you can find one, they are now fairly rare. I had to modify the crossmember and shorten the driveshaft, but otherwise bolted right up.

George

Thanks for the info George........I would LOVE to have a 5 speed in my Tempest.
However I ended up with this Sagianw 4 speed at like dirt cheap and trying to maximize the budget, I will see if I can work out this issue and see what happens.

Those 5 speeds are getting hard to find and when you do, the price keeps going higher. Yessiree I would love to have a 5 speed in the Tempest.

[azmusclecar]

I'm adding another post to this thread letting you know all did not end up well in my swap. As I swapped the tail-housings, the need to pull the tail-housing back maybe 1/4 to 1/2 an inch to allow access to the C clip to release the tail-housing was accomplished. Not without difficulty. But still completed

When you pull the housing back to gain that 1/4-1/2 inch, the internal shaft with all the gears and synchros slid back as well. Nothing seemed odd about that.

There are 14 needle bearings in the nose of this shaft aligned around the shaft.

You can see where this is headed maybe. ONE needle bearing fell out of alignment and went forward in to the vacated space of the snout and lodged itself there.

After the tail-housing swap, I had a bit of difficulty getting gears to align with their counterparts and it was such a minuscule difference I took it as just wear and tear. There was a little voice saying this wasn't right but we can justify things in many different ways.

The tail-housing now bolted on with all new gaskets and the gear cover plate also with new gaskets and such and she's all bolted up ready to go.

Then, as I rotated the shaft, things did not feel right and the shaft froze and I couldn't turn it forward or back. I couldn't shift the levers to check the gear shifts. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I tore it apart once again, and again, and again of course ruining gaskets in the
process. Everything I tried, and everything I thought to try failed. The shaft would turn with the tail-housing off and when installed it locked up again.

The ONLY differences between the two tail-housings was EXTERNAL. Not internal so if you swap one to the other, and there is actually NOTHING in that tail-housing, how can it be doing this.????

I finally called a guy who rebuilds Muncies and he said to bring it over. It puzzled him and he spent hours trying to find the issue. He shined a flashlight in to the area where the needle bearings reside and he saw they were STILL in place.

BUT, as he rolled the shaft he saw a small gap and there shouldn't be between the needle bearings. So apart it came and there it was, 13 needle bearings around the input shaft and 1 needle bearing stuck in the nose area of the shaft.

You could see the bright scratch marks in the nose where the needle bearing had made contact with the snout and was stopping the shaft from turning.

I made a quick dash to his garage with some new bearings and glad to say the transmission is back on my bench rolling smooth and shifting gears and all seems well.

We both agreed the design of the C clip on the tail-housing sure didn't think it all through. This is why he stays with Muncies. Bless this old guy for helping me out and helping me avoid a complete overhaul when he said everything looks good inside the Saginaw except for a chipped reverse gear. I offered to swap him this Saginaw for a newly built Muncie he had on the bench and he graciously told me to take my Saginaw and leave.........

So, my previous post was a bit too jubilant and shall we say I celebrated BEFORE taking the ball in to the end zone. Now I can move on to a new clutch and pilot bearing and throw out bearing install and know that transmission is ready for it's install.

Failure is so humbling. When it looks easy and seems easy, you may want to have a plan B, in case it's NOT as easy as it seems.

[camerjeff]

Those BW T-50's are notoriously weak trans, also I never cared for the shift pattern on them, with reverse left and back, and 1st gear left and forward. Road racers like that pattern as they seldom use 1st gear after the initial start, that way the 2nd to 3rd shift is forward and back.
I broke several of the BW T-50's in the Astre I had with a Iron Duke for an engine, and a car that was at least 1200lbs lighter than any cammer. I would recommend a T-5 as they are much stronger and have a conventional shift pattern. They also have the intregal shifter.

But back to your original question I think Jeff is correct I do not think the tail housing is a direct swap between Saginaw 3 and 4 speeds. I only have two 3-speeds out in the shop and don't have a 4-speed to compare it to. Maybe if you post pictures of your transmissions it would help.

[azmusclecar]

[IMG][/IMG]

You can see the lower three holes that were used to attach a torque tube or torque brace to either I believe Camaros...........

They are the problem with the tailshaft AND attaching the Hurst Shifter Bracket

['ol Pinion head]

Originally Posted by azmusclecar

[IMG][/IMG]

You can see the lower three holes that were used to attach a torque tube or torque brace to either I believe Camaros...........

They are the problem with the tailshaft AND attaching the Hurst Shifter Bracket

the spacing of the three mounting bolts of the shifter plate sure looks like the wide bolt pattern used on the big output shaft Muncie 4 spds ('71-74 GM usage). There were two different stamped steel mounting plates used with the '71-74 Muncies. If trying to bolt onto the wide pattern, I would pursue one of the later style steel mounting plates

[azmusclecar]

Originally Posted by 'ol Pinion head

the spacing of the three mounting bolts of the shifter plate sure looks like the wide bolt pattern used on the big output shaft Muncie 4 spds ('71-74 GM usage). There were two different stamped steel mounting plates used with the '71-74 Muncies. If trying to bolt onto the wide pattern, I would pursue one of the later style steel mounting plates

I was trying to research the different tail-housings to see what was year specific or even engine specific.

As I have found out this odd setup on the bottom of the tail-housing was used in 1981 1982 Camaros..........and maybe they used the mold you speak of and just added the metal at the base for the torque arm.

Thanks for the post........

[azmusclecar]

Overall pic of the 4 speed tranny

[IMG][/IMG]

[george kujanski]

Sure cammerJeff, but AZ may be using his car for normal driving. I had it behind my Sprint and just had fun with it in normal driving, no probs But i only had one

here's what i found out: When i bought mine from a bone yard, I dissassembled it and found broken teeth. There was also a plate gear, spring loaded to the front gear of the cluster gear that was damaged.

I talked to a B-W engineer who said it was to remove backlash and quiet the noise when unloaded, but would also fail. He said to remove it. Anyway, short story, I bought it cheap and replaced the necessary parts and it was fine for my driving.

Finding gears and parts nowadays may be difficult, hence I would only buy one if I got it real cheap and take a chance. i've seen ads for $1K, 5K, etc. I wouldn't spend more than $100 today, it's risky.

George

[azmusclecar]

You can tell the gear ratios in the gear box by the number of rings or grooves on the input shaft. This tranny has 3 which makes it the 3.50 first gear one.

[IMG][/IMG]

[azmusclecar]

Well, little by little, the four speed project is coming along. And I still have ALL my fingers!

[IMG][/IMG]

Makes you want to jump on the bench seat and slam some gears like
Bill Jenkins or Ronnie Sox.

[IMG][/IMG]

Sorry, no gear slamming. Just a teaser...............

I'm so pleased I can move the bench seat as far forward as it goes and the
shifter doesn't hit the seat. This shifter lever is perfect for my application.
I spent a lot of money buying levers that were not bent nor twisted to
my liking. This one is gravy on my taterz.

[azmusclecar]

I was hoping to find a Hurst Shifter to bolt right to those three bolts in a triangulated figure to solve the problem if the tailhousing swap won't work.

[IMG][/IMG]

[azmusclecar]

I hope the pics help show what I am dealing with. Sorry for being lazy, should have posted them on the first thread............

[azmusclecar]

To add some more confusion.............just kidding, here is a link to the three and four speeds so you have an idea of what all is out there to make this confusing.



http://www.teufert.net/trans/trannyid.pdf

[azmusclecar]

I am pleased as punch (never understood that saying) BUT I AM..........
I'm here to report my OHC is off the lift and just made it's maiden
voyage around the block with the new 4 speed and clutch and
all the changes I made to it while it hibernated this year.

The gears all feel great. That 3.50 first gear takes the tach up fast to
4,000 and that is good enough for me. No hot rods or burnouts.
Just trying all the gears up and down and reverse and clutch
engagemant is so smooth.

The shifter falls right in to my hand. The throws are a bit long compared
to todays rail shifters but it's just more exercise for my right arm.

I will test drive up the road next week but for now I just wanted to see if I had
any leaks, or rattles.

Was it worth it?

Uhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Too soon to tell............I'm still adding up the numbers...........I may need to
claim a new dependant on my income tax named Tempest.

[Jeff Hamlin]

Here is something similar to the mount I was thinking of;
http://www.jegs.com/i/Hurst/530/3667...yABEgJrCPD_BwE

[azmusclecar]

Originally Posted by Jeff Hamlin

Here is something similar to the mount I was thinking of;
http://www.jegs.com/i/Hurst/530/3667...yABEgJrCPD_BwE

Jeff I have Hurst checking to see if they have just the bracket..........and can sell separate.

Thanks for taking the time to find that and supply the link.
AZ