[Paul Spotts]

prototype block #1 pictured. first step was to fit crank, check all tapped holes, deburr, dry fit etc. I smoothed out and enlarged all oil returns. When spraying wd40, certain areas of the block will retain oil, and of course getting the oil back to the sump is important.

[Robert C.]

Just a quote that I found on the net:

(For mass production applications, auto manufacturers do wait a year or
more before using cast iron engine blocks. In fact, the foundries normally stack the engine blocks out in a yard and let them rust. When needed they pull them into the shop for machining. At Ford they called it the seasoning.)

(Engine bearing tolerances are tight, but most block tolerances are not, including the cylinder bore. The piston rings have a certain degree of springiness to conform to the bore. Bearings are normally inserted into a housing in the block and torqued down. Racing engines or other high performance engines are a different story. They call finding the exact and tight tolerance "blue printing.")

yard.) From: Kempinski, Robert M. ([email protected]) http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Se...asa.gov&rnum=2

CNC Machines are cast and put out side to rust for a year or more. The process of expanding and shrinking everyday will take out stress. This is used to hold extreme close tolerances that are need to machine parts. I do not think that we are machining down to the .00002 millionth of an inch here. Yes a block will settle or move over time. Yes you can heat treat it to remove stress. Are you willing to add $200.00 to the price or more maybe for .0005 tenths of and inch?

Seasoning: It’s like spaghetti and meat balls. Isn't better after you have put it in the refrigerator for a week and reheat it? Only a
Wop like me would know. Aint that right?

Bob Cacciotti

[Lloyd-TX]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brian Baker:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lloyd-TX:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brian Baker:
There is no "new" Butler iron block that I'm aware of, but I believe Butler still has a stash of IA-I blocks. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brian:

I've spoken with Jim on several occasions concerning their new aluminum AND iron blocks. Three iron blocks HAVE been cast, but they want to finish R&D and testing on the aluminum block before releasing the iron blocks for sale.

My engine builder believes that an iron block is better suited for my purposes.

I hate to step on any toes, but Jim has told me that the alloy in their iron block is FAR superior to the IA2 alloy and that each Butler iron block will be subjected to a "seasoning" process prior to shipping. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is that so? Haven't heard Butler advertising about any new iron block coming out, just the aluminum.

Seems awful peculiar that the only block in town was the Indian Adventures block, before Bob & Frank purchased the rights to that block from Dick. Now there are suddenly other new blocks coming out of the woodwork (with the KRE block I saw at VMP looking like a dead ringer for the IA-II block).

Stepping on toes indeed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Finally found a couple of notes from my last conversation with Jim Butler.

What Jim told me was that the company casting ALL of their new products - iron and aluminum blocks, RP cylinder heads and the RA IV intake - is a small, family owned foundry. Sorry, but I can't find the name. The son runs day-to-day operations, but the father is still involved. They have some VERY dedicated emplyees and have been extremely helpful throughout.

The cast-iron alloy which Jim mentioned to me - in his words - "a compacted graphite iron alloy".

Further thoughts and comments?

[Jagtec1]

Excellent pictures and insight Paul. I checked the block sample out at VMP, as well as the 2 cross sections of old vs. new. Pretty impressive...that is the amt. of time and effort put into getting it right. I love seeing the thought and procedure that goes into the prep and testing...

I learn something new every day!

[Tom Vaught]

Proven fact that a 100K block has done its deal as far as moving around.

If someone gives me a IA-II block I will season it for them but it might take a while at 1/4 mile each time to reach 100K LOL!

Tom V.

[Ron]

Paul will this block be available without the cooling holes?

[Maximum Race Engines]

Guys-
Yes, Jim does not keep it a secret that he wants to produce an iron block. But right now he wants to promote his aluminum block and that is all he is advertising. As far as where JBP or KRE for that matter have come up with there versions, it is up for the companies at hand to deal with. The most important thing now is that the IA2 WILL be the best around. I am working with ALLPONTIAC to be able to incorporate everything possible to make life easier for everyone at hand from street guys to race guys. Nothing will be done unless we know it will work. I am sure there are alot of builders wanting to see alot of different changes be made, and I for one will be trying to make certain ideas happen. But everyone needs to understand that certain changes require money, and nobody wants to see the price of this block get driven back up. Bob and Frank asked me in the begining about how much I think it should be sold for, and they used it. I would hate to see that altered due to any major design changes. ALLPONTIAC has come up with something that will work, they are open for suggestions, and I'm sure will offer options to those wanting them. Bob and Frank are not in this to promote a junk block. They are indeed made out of the best high quality iron that can be used. To quote Bob, "If we can't make the best block around, then there is no sense in doing it..." These guys are dedicated and they should be commended for it. I am not just saying that because I am working with them on this, but because they are in it for the same reason I am, we just love doing it. I will report back from time to time with any new progress. If anyone has any questions about the block feel free to email me.

Joe Pontiac
Maximum Race Engines
[email protected]
www.maximumraceengines.com

[David Holmberg]

Big Dave, You're the man!

TTS, I was 14 in 76.

Brians always amazed...

[Big Injun]

Well, as I have come to experience, everyone looks to better the other guy by improving upon each others designs. Call it copying if you want, but it is not. When Dick & Tom (IA) first had plans drawn up, they were derived from a GM blueprint. They paid for the use of the GM blueprint but no royalty to GM on Chief Many Horses block, why? It is materially changed from the original. It is a different block. Each block that is being manufactured is a change from the original Pontiac block, not a copy.

Butler’s aluminum block is significantly different from any factory produced cast iron (or aluminum) block. Not a factory piece, not an IA piece...a Butler piece. I suspect that KRE’s block will again have some uniqueness making it a KRE piece.

Pontiac itself even copied the Ford tunnel port head in designing the RA V head. George DeLorean bolted a Ford head to a Pontiac block and the rest is history.

Think about what goes on over in the Chevy/Mopar/Ford world concerning aftermarket products? Same father, different mother or visa versa. LOL Did one think that because the Pontiac market is smaller that there would never be similar product produced with material differences dedicated to the same end?

It seams that a lot of stones are being thrown at manufacturers with similar product in the pipeline. Why? Perhaps because of promises made by another party during “a sale” that more than likely could have been rebutted with further due diligence by a buyer. Praise those willing to put it on the line to deliver new product to the Pontiac market...more is better!

[Rob]

Sounds like JBP has a plan. Didn't mean to hammer you so hard on the alloy deal.

I'm looking forward to seeing all these new Pontiac parts available.

-Rob

[Lloyd-TX]

Thanks for the pics and info Paul.

Still waiting for the Butler iron block for my new 535" engine, however. Hopefully not too much longer!

[Rob]

Everything moves with temperature changes, I think it would be neat to be able to measure engine bore distortions when they're hot.

Changes happen so fast in racing that you'll never get a chance to wait a year on a block.

-Rob

[Tom Vaught]

That's Right, Pat and Tony.

You watch out cause Ray is coming after you!

I love you man! LOL!

Help you any way I can! (except for money!)
LOL!

My son's flying costs TOO much to give it to friends.

Tom V.

[Brian Baker]

There is no "new" Butler iron block that I'm aware of, but I believe Butler still has a stash of IA-I blocks.

[Rob]

That's it Tom, vibration, heating, cooling, ageing. Not sure what JBP's definition of "seasoning" is as it could be just about any process that may or may not help a engine perform better or longer because the environment they operate in changes quite a bit.

First time I was introduced to it was making machinist angle plates, guys showed me how to make a hunk of iron into a 90 degree angle within .0002" over 6 inches. They thought it was pretty funny when after producing one even a little better than that a month later it wasn't straight within .003"! Over time things will move.



-Rob

[Rob]

I believe this is one of the few things not completly revised on the IAII blocks.

I'm pretty sure several of the holes are what holds and locates the patterns when the block is poured. They become water holes, I'm pretty sure set up in stock locations. There are a couple of places where a second machining operation made end mill type cuts on one or more of these holes which I believe Bob and Frank already have worked on with Roush(probably the area where Wade had a deck plugging adventure). When the bore becomes siamese and 4.300 plus, o-ringing has always been a creative excercise(I would figure eight the wire ring for the two center cylinders and adjust the outers to stay out of water holes. Regular head gasket fire rings end up on top of stock placed water holes.

Not sure how Bob and Frank plan to offer the deck as many people want dry decks, many want plenty of cooling water holes, and others custom. I proposed a 5/16 hole in the same area of stock locations which is the drill size for 1/4 inch pipe plugs making life easier before decking. They may do much of the plugging and decking operation or leave it up to the individual engine builder. Many of us can handle the deck in any configuration, but if a private individual gets a block for street car type stuff, it would probably be best if they had a easy set of water holes and simple headgasket.

So what this long winded post boils down to is water holes on big bore blocks will need to be smaller for sealing. This will require water hole plugging of the casting before decking and then machining the water holes or not(dry decked).

-Rob

[Ron]

OOPs!

[Big Injun]

Brian,

Are you talking industrial espionage here? Crossing state lines...Better call in the FBI. This board is big, but I doubt it or the members has any judicial power. LOL

I am speaking in general about "all" of the experts on the board who know it all and who most likely are not in the market for much of the new product being offered.

PS: Ron, are you posting in the wrong thread again!

[Tom Vaught]

My opinion is that race engines are like a horse that is run hard and put away wet, you
don't like to do it but sometimes you have little choice.

A 2000 hp block is moving around so much the dimensions you thought you had may be anywhere.

Some 1000+ hp blocks too if it is a roots style
blower car with a high belt load at high rpm (like a high helix 14-71).

Turbos are the easiest on the blocks due to their design and the fact that the crank sees a lot less
twist.

Tom V.

[Paul Spotts]

all work is prior to machine shop - decks were not cut yet

pictured here is dip stick hole I tapped with 1/4 npt to plug - using Canton pan with external dip stick provision