[Steve Barcak]

This topic was originally in the parts wanted section. I feel it is better seen here. Agree? Steve

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It was asked on this board. In reference to aftermarket components, including heads and blocks, "When is a Pontiac not a Pontiac anymore"? When is a Pontiac not a Pontiac anymore if it has aftermarket parts? Corporate chebys with "pontiac" on the valve covers? What kind of crap is this? What is a Pontiac? First off, call a spade a spade. A corporate pontiac (pontiac is not capitalized on purpose when referring to corporate stuff). is a chevy based engine design PERIOD. pontiac in the 80s started designing parts to fit a cheby block. Because of this, pontiac lost its identity and many new car customers (myself included). Do you know how much the cheby boys chuckle about this? To the bow tie gang, pontiac changed to making cheby parts because the original (real) Pontiac engine was, in their mind, junk. Nothing is more degrading than seeing "pontiac" on a cheby engine such as prostock, etc. By running that corporate stuff, you are basically saying the same thing whether it is consious to you (them) or not. Is there anyone here stupid enough to think that Warren Johnson is a Pontiac man? If you beleive that you are in for an awakening, he is a bow tie man but, pontiac is throwing money his way so he whores to the pontiac name. It is all about money. All the current ads from pontiac about their participation in NHRA Pro Stock with WJ and others crack me up. Do those market people at pmd think that their ads are selling grand ams in the show rooms? They are wasting their money on those ads. Then they drop the Firebird and decide to bring back the GTO as a foriegn car. How more humiliating to us can they be?
On REAL Pontiacs. If you change the cam to an aftermarket one is it still a Pontiac? Damn right it is! Same goes for ANY other component you change, even a block. Why? Because you are still using the basic plans/blueprints from the original design and are making an improvement on an existing part to replace it. This is called development and it is very critical for our out of production (for 20 odd years) engine. This applies to cams, intakes, timing chains and, yes, even blocks and heads. Sure, it isn't factory anymore but, who cares? The factory obviously doesn't so, what do we do? Let the motor die by using up whatever parts are left? After decades of aftermarket development by the other brands, I am thrilled to see people/companies putting in time and money into the engine design that I love so much. Anytime a new component comes out that is designed to fit a Real Pontiac it is a blessing for us all. This is because , whether you use that particular part or not, it "waterfalls" to other potential ideas for componants for our engine. It further improves or potentially improves the design. Hey, the people at GM (or Pontiac division, whoever is/was responsible) gave up on the design but, that doesn't mean it is dead. Far from it. Again, I applaud companies like Edelbrock, Wenzler, IA, BOP and others who put time and money into developing good, quality parts for the engine design that is so near and dear to my heart!
That is what a Pontiac is, our motor with parts to fit our motor. God bless them and I hope more companies will do the same. I am even planning to make available some competition parts for REAL Pontiac engines after more testing is done. One goal of mine is to have a REAL Pontiac that is faster than any corporate powered anything and it is not a dream, it is closer than anyone may think. More?
www.pontiacheaven.org
A REAL Pontiac site for REAL Pontiac people!
and remember......REAL Pontiacs ONLY! NO corporate nonsense! I invite all REAL Pontiac fans to my event- "Pontiac Heaven Drags & More V" coming to Phoenix in April.
Proud to be a REAL Pontiac man.
Steve Barcak

[JKGTO]

IM NOT DOWNGRADING ANYBODY. JUST STATING THE FACTS. I KNOW ARNIE IS A GOOD GUY. AND I LIKE CHEVROLETS. JUST NOT IN PONTIACS. SOME OF YOU GUYS NEED TO WAKE UP. YOU KEEP PUTTING WORDS IN PEOPLES MOUTHS. IF ARNIE WOULD RATHER RUN A PONTIAC THEN WHY DIDNT HE DO IT. YOU CANT KEEP ASKING OTHER PEOPLE TO FOOT THE BILL FOR YOU. I WOULD LIKE TO RUN A 9 SECOND SUPER STOCKER. ONE OF YOU GUYS GONNA FOOT THE BILL FOR ME? GUESS NOT. STEVE IS DOING AN ALL PONTIAC RACE. WHY CANT YOU ALL GET BEHIND HIS EFFORT. AND HE WAS RIGHT ABOUT PE TOO. ALL POLITICS BEHIND THAT RAG. NO ONE ELSE HAS THE GUTS TO TELL IT LIKE IT IS.

[Ron]

Arnie does not run a BBC. He runs a corporate motor. Difference......BBC heads will not bolt on to the block.

Ron

[Trev]

Oh, By the way. I think this should have been posted in the Lobby.

[Steve Barcak]

Dude,
I am not bashing PE. I have met some very nice people that work there. Unfortunately, they are not the ones who make the decisions. I know that HPP also runs stuff on late models. That is not the issue. Perhaps you did not understand my post. The point is that PE refuses to run stories about a vintage Pontiac only event. The other point is that they do not want you to know that. HPP does not have that policy. Is that better stated and more clear? I am only stating facts, not speading crap. Your other question concerning Canadian Pontiacs with chev engines no, they are not allowed. Only Real Pontiac powered vehicles. I have now rented the track for a second day and this second day is for all 1981 and older American vehicles and engine swaps are OK.
This is not intended to be a heated talk. I wish to make friends here and add to the forum. I am comfortable with other Real Pontiac people and I enjoy reading other posts too. I realize that most of you are probably not as hard core as I am and that is fine. Please don't take that last line the wrong way, I just live and breath old Pontiacs, it is my life.
Dude, if you have other questions and interest about the future of vintage Pontiacs and me, I invite you to see my site. I have seen yours and I like it, it is very good. There is info about my bottom end on there too. I have dedicated a portion of my life and put off racing to establish Pontiac Heaven. Pontiacs here do not rust and I bought land and zoning to store old Pontiacs to keep them from being crushed. I have personally saved about 500 so far in the last 8 years. It is a start. I love this hobby and I will do what I can to preswerve it for decades and generations to come. They will always be cool. Between people like me and the repro industry, vintage Pontiacs will be around for a loooong time. AMEN.
Merry Christmas to all my Pontiac friends (present and future).

[This message was edited by Steve Barcak on December 24, 2002 at 06:41 PM.]

[This message was edited by Steve Barcak on December 24, 2002 at 06:43 PM.]

[Tom Vaught]

Post #3

Quote:

"*I have received many emails on this “Real Pontiac” topic and all were positive as were most posts here. Thank you all for that When you take a stand on something, no matter what it is, you put yourself in a position of being “loved or hated“ so to speak, one side of the fence or the other. That is not a problem on this topic for me as the Real Pontiac is my favorite subject. There are a LOT of great Pontiac people here on this site and I think that is terrific.

I agree totally with the great people on the PY
site.


Quote:

"* The PE issue. I just wanted to let people know the truth on how I was treated about getting the word out on my events in the west and how they refused to cover my event because I proudly do not allow cheby power there. Perhaps if subscribers and advertisers (my advertising dollars have now gone to their competitor) were in the know about this issue, the people at PE would change their position on Real Pontiacs and support them better. You may also, want to email them with your feelings. That is all. I’m not a bad mouther, PE has had some great articles in the past years but, they are not fair in covering all aspects of Pontiac activities. And they are not Pro Real Pontiac.

Steve, It is WANGERS magazine and he can decide
what he wants to publish. If he doesn't want to
cover your event so be it. If he wants to cover a
wide spectrum of old and new pontiacs (with the
corporate engine) that is his choice, not yours.
NOT FAIR is YOUR opinion. Tom V.

[Tom Vaught]

Eric D,

Great Post.

Quote:

"Also, if I remember right, the "Pontiac" Brodex heads were superior to anything that said "Chevrolet" at the time (to the point of being banned from NASCAR). By the way, last time I went to see the Midgets run at Angell Park in Sun Prairie, many of the cars ran Iron Dukes with the Brodex heads. It may be a Chevy, but like the F-Body cars, Pontiac made it better."

My comments about the Brodex heads were not to "wind Steve up". Pontiac had already lost the
V-8 motor battle. My point was they did not roll
over and die. They went out and kicked Chevrolets
butt using Chebby spec parts too. I think most people call that better engineering.

In Steve's case, I think he wants the enjoyment of kicking their butts with a traditional engine
which is fine but will make him a big fish in a
small pond like Marty Palbykins TT GTO was. We
were all very proud of Marty and what he did but
at the time he was breaking into the 6s the PRO
MOD guys had to run 6.50 or faster just to make the field. Marty did not have the support, even though he had a tremendous desire to ever run
competively against the front runner cars in PRO
MOD. I personally do not see the support for Steve's deal either. Steve will possibly win
on a local basis but will never be competitive
with the current equipment in the class he wants to run in.

Jimmy Keen and Elias D. spent hundreds of thousands of dollars over several years to win
National championships with lots of sponsors. We
have NO traditional Pontiac team with those resources or sponsors. Probably never will either.

Tom V.

[iron man]

Well spoken, well said.

[Steve C.]

Ron- Arnie's switch to Pontiac must have been recent, at the last (Oct '02) Pontiac Uprising in Arkansas City he was still with a BBC.
But I did here 'rumors' about an I.A. block.

'Damn right it's a street car'

[Tom Vaught]

Not too many 75 year old men can hang with the 20
and 30 years old drivers, period. Have seen him stand a car on its bumper at Butler's, realize
that the wheelie bars were not installed by a crew man, gently bring the car down to the pavement over a hundred yard distance, and barely
knock the crank trigger sensor out of adjustment.
(no other damage to the car). Impressed the He**
out of me. Course Arnie probably ***** his pants
but you would not have known it by his driving.

You just don't like Chebby motors, If Arnie was
driving a 2000 hp IA motor (like Butlers) with spray you would be bragging him up instead of running him down.

Same deal for Marty. EVERYBODY LOVED Marty when he was running Traditional Pontiac. He goes to
a Chebby Blower motor and suddenly he lost all
of his "brownie points" with the fans. Amazing.

Tom V.

ps, I am a lot like Ken (PDude) in that I admire all fast pieces of iron or aluminum. The metal
doesn't know whose name is on it. A good driver is a good driver and can drive ANYTHING.

[Bruce Meyer]

Right On Steve! See you at Speedworld.

[Dick Duclow]

Obviously, I'm prejudiced, but I couldn't agree more!

[Brian Baker]

P-Dude !!! LOL !!!

JK, about Arnie and why he isn't racing a Pontiac powered car.

To run at the ET and MPH he is turning with the '64 would require ALOT of MONEY with a traditional based Pontiac V8. Jack Gaydosh and Scott Rex are just dipping into the 7's naturally aspirated with 530+ C.I. IA engines and much more aerodynamic bodies than what Arnie is running. Arnie would have to dump a helluvalot of nitrous into a comparable IA setup to get that '64 to run low 7's like it can now.

Yes, what Arnie is doing is his passion and pastime, but I don't think Arnie has a money tree in his backyard. This means I don't think he could afford to do all of the travelling he does with the '64 for match races and exhibition runs without getting paid to do so. Arnie is by no means making a killing getting paid for what he is doing either. He's getting paid just enough in most cases to keep the operation going to the next event. This is why he runs a BBC (sorry Ron, I see no evidence of it being a corporate engine with aftermarket block and heads). He tunes it so it is easy on parts while still providing exciting low 7 second runs and his patended 1/2 track burnouts.

[Rob]

Jim Yanoski = Hard Core Pontiac Enthusiast

Pontiac Brand Loyality for me came from the cars I bought as I grew up. For me, those were Firebirds and TransAms and those were the last to hold the Big Torque 455 cid engines. They evolved from earlier Pontiac engines and I'm pretty sure the biggest family of pontiacs with very similar dimensions. Here's my list of those that fit the Traditional Pontiac Engine

195, 287, 316, 326, 347, 350, 389, 400, 421, 428, 455, Indian Adventures.


For me the half 389 4cyl and Indian Adventures aftermarket fit the definiton, there may some more that I missed that should be included, but this group all share a very similar design on spacing a placement.

They are the basis for "Aftermarket Pontiac"

Deeper Brand Loyality comes from that history, same with the SBC/BBC, SBF/BBF, and Chrysler stuff. NASCAR and NHRA Pontiac stuff will always be in a pickle because they are neither and both and have the defintion of Corporate. I imagine all the different Corporations that buy out good companies have the same problem of loosing the vision, direction, and reason a product had a value and purpose in the first place.

Corporate Pontiac unfortunately fits in the family of Short Run Racing parts and gets grouped with Arias Engine Blocks, PSI Superchargers, Mountain Fords, things you find at Bonneville Salt Flats, Crazy home made Blocks, and heads that aren't accepted kinda a lost group with small amount of people that even know they exist.

I like the New TA shaker Ken's making, I used to have a holley jammed up in the stock one.

New Cometic AFTERMARKET PONTIAC head Gaskets in 4 Days!

-Rob

[Brian Baker]

Regarding those Pontiac Brodix heads, I remember all of the Chevrolet NASCAR teams switching to those heads because they performed better. NASCAR got involved probably because some of the Pontiac teams complained that it wasn't a "Chevy" powerplant under the hood of those Chevrolet cars. NASCAR banned the Chevrolet teams from using the heads, and they screamed "no fair" that the Pontiac teams can still use them. You know what happened next.

[Brian Baker]

Arnie has been gracious enough to drop by our OPRA July races at Mason-Dixon over the last 2-3 years, and I gotta' tell ya'...he really is operating on a shoestring budget.

This past summer we had a BBQ and invited his crew over for some free grub. They were most appreciative (especially when the trackburgers are "tofu-like").

He aims to please, however. He blew the R&P out of it on the 2nd pass of the day about 60' out. His main crewman had a new R&P in it and had it turned around and ready to go in less than 90 minutes. Amazing. Arnie was all set to make a final run but they wouldn't let him as the fire truck had already left for the day, so no "fast" cars were running at that point of the day.

When you'r ematch-racing or making exhibition runs on a budget, you have to run with what is the cheapest and most readily available parts. Unfortunately the traditional Pontiac V8 doesn't fit into this niche.

[mechanickeith]

Hey Steve!!! If my memory is correct, didn't Arnie Bestwick say last year, that the engine in his 63 Tempest was the same block & crank he was running in 63??? He did 3 shakedown passes, all in the eight's!!! & on 7 cylinders!!! He was pumping water into a hole!!

Last year was outstanding!!! What a difference between 01 & 02. Over 100 cars & 600 through the gates in 02!!

This year will be bigger & better I'm sure!! See you in April!! I will be there!! Both Days!!

[FantomPoncho]

I'm new to this BB and relatively new to Pontiacs and drag racing. Also, I gather from what I've read (though I may be wrong), that most of you are in the automotive industry for a living. This is simply a hobby for me, as I make my living from something completely different. In a way, you could call me an outsider.

I happen to know Steve personally and am a volunteer crew man for his fueler. I also gather that most of you who have criticized him don't know him personally. From my experience, Steve is the most accessible, open person I know. One of my first meetings with him was when I bought some parts from him for my car. It was a set of cylinder heads. After I told him what I was planning on doing with the car, he said that I could call him anytime for suggestions or advice. This was very suprising to me because prior to meeting him, most shops and mechanics around here either new nothing about Pontiac power (and wouldn't admit it) or told me they couldn't do anything for me. Or they would suggest I save myself the headache and drop a chevy in.

My first vehicle was a mid '70s chevy pickup with a 350 4 speed. As a teenager, I was willing to do anything to learn more about engines and hot rodding. In general, nearly everyone I talked to would sooner spit on me then give me advice. This is not the case with nearly every single person I've met in the Pontiac "world". 3 years ago I would've laughed if you told me I could rebuild an engine by myself. But with the generous help of people like Steve, I now have a beautiful 66 Lemans, 421 powered that was built almost entirely by myself, including assembly of the cylinder heads.

For someone who makes their living building engines, giving away your secrets is like giving away your paycheck. I completely understand that. But for someone like Steve, Pontiacs are not how he makes his living, but it is a way of life. There is a big difference. It is the same for me. I know I won't be giving away the farm if someone asks me the difference between a 350 chevy and a 350 Pontiac.

As for Steve not letting corporate power to his event, it is his event and he funds it, so it is his choice. It just seems that Wangers took it personally that he couldn't bring his corporate powered Pontiac. No one else, including Arnie Beswick, seemed to be offended by this. In fact, last year, Arnie went out of his way to bring Pontiac power to his event. ANYONE is aloud to attend his event. I suspect if John Force or Kenny Bernstein showed up, Steve would let them in, but he'd tell them to leave their cars at the gate. This is because this event celebrates the engine and not necessarily the car. I think this is why PE refuses to acknowledge the event or anything else done by Steve.

Regardless of how fast Steve has gone now or in the past, how many of you know someone who has gone out of his way to save hundreds of Pontiacs from the crusher, or who runs a yard strictly for Pontiacs? I've seen Steve take phone calls from someone he doesn't even know and proceed to an hour on the phone freely giving his knowledge and experience. If there were more people like him, it would be a lot easier to find that steering wheel for your '68 Bird, or A/C ducts for your '72 GTO. Because of Steve's efforts, there are more classic Pontiacs on the road. Now who can criticize that?

[jim brady]

Steve, your chances of being competitive in Nostalgia T/F will be a giant battle. I hope you can be succesful. I just don't think that you can be competive with guys like Rance McDanniel, or Jack Harris who have went in the 5's. You might have a chance if you would use a IA block. If you choose not to, well good luck. Frank Parks who's son Scott runs Jr fuel which is limeted to 355 inch and stack injectors has run 7.0's It will be hard for you to even qualify for JR Fuel. As Eddie Hill said, the best thing he ever did with a Pontiac Top Fuel motor was when he loaded all of his spare stuff and dumped it in the bottom of a lake! You have one other chance and that would be to have The guy on the west coast build you one of those killer 350's. Enough said. I really do hope that you can do it.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

And the winner is????????

Let's go Racing


Build it fast, build it right, build a Pontiac.
http://PontiacDude.cc