[Rugratman]

I was wondering after seeing a car for sale at a local car show Sunday.
Is a numbers matching car; The original motor that came with the car off the assembly line ?

OR
The correct code motor for that year. Example your car comes with a WS code motor than is exchanged for a YZ motor. Even though both motors were cast that same year ? Or even replaced with another WS motor ?
How can you tell ?
Is there a vin number on the block somewhere ?

It was actually a Mustang. I am just being generally speaking.
How do make sure you are not ripped off ?

['ol Pinion head]

CT,
The number you have matched is engine asm number not the VIN number. Asm # should be on the protecto-plate & on the original block. Original protecto plate helps tremendously. Thank GOD, fake protecto plates in Pontiac world are near nonexistant, can't say that for world of Chevys .

[ctgross]

Very interestering! I know my 66 389 has a number on the passenger side above the two letter code that does match the pro-tecto plate. I haven't seen any numbers on the drivers side in that area, but I'm gonna look. I've never heard of any V.I.N. numbers on the older blocks (before 69 or so) but, stranger things have happened!!

CT Gross
------------------------------------------

"It's never too late to have a happy childhood"!

66 Blue GTO

[Juliano]

Matching numbers is just another term for "obssesive compulsive disorder"

[gtoman67]

as far as matching # for engine blocks pontiac did not start putting vin # on the blocks until 1968 from 64 to 67 the block code would match the type of car you had re: 4 speed or auto trans etc...
for example a 67 with a 4 speed would have a WT code block but if the car was ordered with the ram air package and was a 4 speed then the the block code ys code to represent the 360 hp block vs the 335 so if you have the PHS documentation the it will tell you the possible block code options for that car.

[real61ss]

Like I said earlier today, I have the motor out of my 65 GTO, have the paint stripped off of it and ready to repaint so it's easy to see any numbers. The numbers on the passenger match my protecto plate but theres no numbers on the drivers side. Wish there was, thought we were on to something

Tommy

[ctgross]

OPH, yea I didn't mean to imply that the number on my block was related to any of the VIN, but that it does(engine production #) match the protecto plate. I totally agree that the prot. plate is a serious important item for the owner. Mine has affixed the factory plate and the plate that is mailed to the original purchaser(has his name,etc. with the #'s) placed just above the other, as per instructed in the booklet. I really enjoy these posts and you guys experience. I think Carbkng has a very original factory engine with those numbers. I don't believe someone could stamp a block with such correctness as the factory stamp shows.

CT Gross
------------------------------------------

"It's never too late to have a happy childhood"!

66 Blue GTO

[Fred's red sled]

Carbking,
I don't see this as argumentative at all. I'm fascinated and find it very educational! I'll be watching this post to see if others have VIN's on their blocks.

"Come on baby. Sit back, relax and enjoy the ride!"

[Marty Phipps]

Carbking is correct.

The origional 350 in my Firebird had two different stamps.
the one on the passenger side was the engine code.
The one visible with all the front trim, Timing cover,etc.
Actually matched the last 6 digits of my vin
Which meant I had a matching number car when I bought it.
Of course, the 350 now belongs to the local high school shop class.

[Rugratman]

I was wondering after seeing a car for sale at a local car show Sunday.
Is a numbers matching car; The original motor that came with the car off the assembly line ?

OR
The correct code motor for that year. Example your car comes with a WS code motor than is exchanged for a YZ motor. Even though both motors were cast that same year ? Or even replaced with another WS motor ?
How can you tell ?
Is there a vin number on the block somewhere ?

It was actually a Mustang. I am just being generally speaking.
How do make sure you are not ripped off ?

[carbking]

Jerry, it was built in Kansas City. If it is something special, the new owner has it, not me.

Doubt it was anything rare, other than very high optioned car. Nothing out of the ordinary (other than the options) showed up on the build sheet, or Pontiac documentation. It was special-ordered by a gentleman who was 58 at the time. Was really more of a baby GP than a GTO. Factory air, tilt column, power seat, A/T, etc., etc.

Jon.

Good carburetion is fuelish hot air.

[GTOGary]

I go along with Jerry on this one, Plain and simple- It's the engine that came with the car....Gary

[carbking]

There should be a large thread on this subject in the archives. It seems that "numbers-matching" means different things to different people in the Pontiac hobby, even to the point of stamping the necessary numbers. If the vehicle in question is a Mustang, a more accurate response might be obtained on a Ford board.

Jon.

Good carburetion is fuelish hot air.

[ctgross]

Fred, I don't think anyone meant to be argumentive, just more explanation of the post. I ditto your remarks on this subject contex, I just really dig all that helps document these cars of my era(youth). The original state of my car means much more to me than any time slips it could possibly supply at the track. Hell, I just enjoy this whole thing!!!!!!

CT Gross
------------------------------------------

"It's never too late to have a happy childhood"!

66 Blue GTO

[carbking]

As I posted before, there should be a large thread on this in the archives. However, I will post what "matching numbers" means to me:

(A) All components which have casting numbers will be the correct casting number for the vehicle as specified by original documentation.
(B) All dated components will be dated prior to the "build date" of the vehicle.
(C) All components with recorded serial numbers (ie engines) will be the original part as came with the car.
(D) All options will be as defined by original documentation (Pontiacs) if available OR will be recognized as dealer installed (ie radios, hubcaps, etc.).
(E) Paint and trim will be as defined on paint and trim plate affixed to vehicle.
(F) Aftermarket parts will be limited to those items not visible (ie pistons, gaskets, etc.)

When did Pontiac start stamping the serial number on engine blocks? I don't know, but I do know that the serial number was stamped on my 1964 GTO engine block (drivers side front).

Dated components for "normal production" vehicles should have the date in a reasonable window prior to the build date. This window normally would be from 2 to 10 weeks. This window does not apply on vary low production vehicles. Example, we have seen many Rochester 7029273 (RAIV S/T) carbs, but only 5 date codes. Obviously, this carburetor would not fit into the 2/10 window.

OK, there's a target. Everyone take your best shot!!!

Jon.

Good carburetion is fuelish hot air.

[Fred's red sled]

Jerry H,
Carbking says his 64 has a serial number stamped on it. This is not the VIN number, just the block serial number. Right? If it is a number that matches the VIN I'd suspect someone tapped it in at a later date.

"Come on baby. Sit back, relax and enjoy the ride!"

[carbking]

Fred - it was the VIN number. Jon.

Good carburetion is fuelish hot air.

[carbking]

I seem to be unable to make clear the number referred to in previous posts, so will try it all in one:

(A) 1964 Pontiac GTO (bought from original owners' estate)
(B) Engine production number stamped on passengers side with engine code just below cylinder head on front block surface.
(C) VIN stamped vertically on drivers side on front block surface, but much lower than the engine production number.
(D) Estate representative (son) told me engine had never been removed from vehicle.
(E) Odometer showed approximately 105000 miles. Engine was using oil.
(F) Upon disassembly of engine, pistons, rings, and crank all were found to be standard size. One broken ring was causing the oil useage.

I did not repeat did not buy car new, so I am not positive that someone didn't take out the radiator, water pump, alternator, etc. and stamp these numbers just to confuse us all, but based on what I was informed, and the observed condition of engine components, I assume these numbers were stamped at the factory.

This post not meant to be arguementative, but simply stating what I personally found on a one-owner vehicle.

Jon.

Good carburetion is fuelish hot air.

[Jerry H.]

Jon,
Stranger things have happened in the world of Pontiac I guess. But this is the first time I've heard of a vin being on an early GTO block. Also its odd it being on the drivers side. You have a very rare engine. What plant was the car built and what time of year? Maybe an early car or a special built car maybe? Maybe something special? Who knows?

Jerry H.

[Rugratman]

So actually, the motor will have a matching serial number on the block ?
So for a example a WT code motor from a 67 GTO that was switched from another 1967 GTO would actually show up as not matching numbers because for the serial numbers not matching ?
But the Trans and rear would all be dated coded.
The serial numbers on the block, match numbers on the vin? Or match another set of " Numbers "?