[Bet Winner]

For January built Judges, please post your build week from the trim tag, shipping date from PHS and build factory. I have seen several shipping dates of 2/5/69 on the PHS sales invoices and am wondering if this means something. I guess I have started to wonder if PMD built Judges and shipped them to the zones for a few weeks and on a preset date, the zones released them to dealerships that were lucky enough to get one in a coordinated natonwide release. This would have allowed PMD to build up some nation wide anticipation of the car's release--just a guess on my part. I would believe this number of cars would be much less than the first 2,000 if this is so.

Here's mine:

Build week: 01C
PHS shipping date: 2/5/69
Build Factory: Baltimore

Thanks!

[jojogto]

Build week ???? PHS shipping date 2/5/69 build factory Fremont

[jojogto]

also engine date codes, oct 68

[Bet Winner]

I'm still hoping some early Judges will post the following:

1. Build Date from the car's data plate
2. PHS shipping date
3. Factory

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Bet Winner, guess we better start downloading all the pattern PHS's from eBay for this and other comparisons. I haven't been saving them previously - you seen one pattern built PHS - seen them all, frame of mentality.

It would make for some interesting trivia if supporting data could be compiled. I do recall that shipping date on numerous in the past ... should have d-loaded them all - in hindsight.

Maybe this would be another good question:

Does anyone have a Judge shipped BEFORE 2/5/69 ?

A little help here, please.

[north]

an interesting sidelight to this i've noticed is that if you compare the sequential part of the VIN to the trim tag build date they always line up logically, but the shipping date on the PHS only lines up with the VIN most of the time, every now and then you will see a car that is shipped (maybe billed is a more precise term since PHS is after all just the factory to dealer invoice) weeks or even months after what the VIN would indicate would be the build date for car in that specific plant. i wonder if this was due to post assembly repairs needed or if the car was used for promo, testing or the like. any thoughts?

if they really did build up an inventory of judges so that they would all hit the dealers at once it would have made for a neat sight at the factory parking lots, too back no photo's have ever shown up to document what must of been an impressive sea of orange.

[north]

i had a quick look at my PHS collection, i have 41 of them for 69 judges and noted the following;

earliest judge (by plant)

plant and PHS date
A= jan 11th
G= jan 27th
Z= feb 5th
R= feb 7th
B= feb 13th
P= may 22nd

earliest non orange (carousel red) judge:
matador red built at Arlington plant on 13th of march

also interesting is the fact that about half the judges i have are before the above mentioned car and the other half after, and of the cars after about 60% are not carousel red,
maybe indicative that other colored judges are not so rare.

i would love to build up a bigger collection of all 69 gto PHS's, judges or not, to improve the quality of the data. if anyone wants to send me any please e-mail them to me at [email protected] unconcealed VIN's and full pages are best since i collect dealer and option info as well as dates.

[Bet Winner]

Originally Posted by north

i had a quick look at my PHS collection, i have 41 of them for 69 judges and noted the following;

earliest judge (by plant)

plant and PHS date
A= jan 11th
G= jan 27th
Z= feb 5th
R= feb 7th
B= feb 13th
P= may 22nd

Please look at your PHS documentation and find "Date Shipped" near the bottom of the sheet. You could list the early shipping dates for us. I'm not sure what date you have used above. If you have listed shipping dates, the two January dates would be earlier than I guessed. If you have any PHS sheets with a Feb. 5 1969 shipping date or earlier, please post a picture of them. Thanks!

My Baltimore built Judge was shipped Feb. 5th.

[north]

[QUOTE=Bet Winner]Please look at your PHS documentation and find "Date Shipped" near the bottom of the sheet. You could list the early shipping dates for us. I'm not sure what date you have used above. If you have listed shipping dates, the two January dates would be earlier than I guessed. If you have any PHS sheets with a Feb. 5 1969 shipping date or earlier, please post a picture of them. Thanks!

i am indeed using the shipping date but your post encouraged me to look a bit deeper into the sources of my info: most of the PHS's i have are digital format from ebay or elsewhere on the net and some of them are only partial or very difficult to read, the info i posted earlier was from an excel spread sheet i have built up over the last year or so.

i rechecked the PHS's themselves that i had dated before feb 5th and there are some issues:

the jan 11th car from the atlanta plant was actually march 11th not january
(this PHS had the last part of the vin blocked out which made it harder to double check the validity of the blurry ship date) making my earliest atlanta car now feb 18th
the Framingham car looks to be right and the sequential VIN seems right for the date but it is hard to be certain due to the particularily poor quality of this image (image is too large to post to forum, but i would like other opinions, i could e-mail it to anyone interested, PM me)

i double checked the rest (which are all after the 5th of feb anyhow) and found no other items that needed correcting.

sounds like you may be right about the feb 5th, it pays to double check!

[Bet Winner]

Originally Posted by north

i rechecked the PHS's themselves that i had dated before feb 5th and there are some issues:

the jan 11th car from the atlanta plant was actually march 11th not january
(this PHS had the last part of the vin blocked out which made it harder to double check the validity of the blurry ship date) making my earliest atlanta car now feb 18th
the Framingham car looks to be right and the sequential VIN seems right for the date but it is hard to be certain due to the particularily poor quality of this image (image is too large to post to forum, but i would like other opinions, i could e-mail it to anyone interested, PM me)

i double checked the rest (which are all after the 5th of feb anyhow) and found no other items that needed correcting.

sounds like you may be right about the feb 5th, it pays to double check!

Since my car was shipped Feb. 5th, I have always noticed others that were shipped Feb. 5th, and I have never seen a PHS with a shipping date before Feb. 5th. If there are several with this Feb. 5th date and none earlier, and with PMD possibly making cars as early as the first or second week of January, then this Feb. 5th date must have been a coordinated release date for the first group. Who knows how large this first group would have been--I suspect a few hundred. But it would separate the very first Judges shipped from the rest--if that means anything.

I'll pm you my e-mail.

I have also never seen a picture of a data plate with a build date of 01A or 01B posted. I sure would like to see one.

Thanks to Baron for reviving this thread.

[428_GTO]

Hi guys
build date 4th week Jan
ship date is Feb 20th
Calif car all it's life 69 Judge
hope this helps

[north]

it's too bad, but i can understand, why PHS will not let us access all the files. a few hundred (72,000 or so gto's in 69) hours of data entry into a data base would really pay off. it could be manipulated to answer thousands of questions such as: how many cars of each color, options or body styles that were never produced in given plants when was the first RA111 and RAIV gto built, etc etc.
maybe there could be a way to access the bulk of the data without revealing confidential info about individual cars and protecting PHS's legitimate business interest of selling the info on a car by car basis.

[SWEETJUDGE]

My Framiningham BUILT, O1D (4th week of jan) Judge. all 68 date coded
i dont have my ship date phs is at my shop, not house. NO GLOVE BOX EMBLEM, padded pillars, GTO emblem on the dash, lower rear quarter trim.
CAROUSEL RED of course.
id love to see any pictures of a dealers lot full or a car transport full of these cars......

[pmdclassics]

When did they stop building the 69's and start with the 70 model Judges?

[6804gto]

Originally Posted by pmdclassics

When did they stop building the 69's and start with the 70 model Judges?

I have a Fremont built Judge with a 07C build date & a 07/28/69 ship date. Anyone have a 69 with a later build? Maybe someone could post their early 70 Judge build dates in a seperate post to help determine when Gm (Pontiac) went from 69 to 70 models.

[LPete]

Originally Posted by 6804gto

I have a Fremont built Judge with a 07C build date & a 07/28/69 ship date. Anyone have a 69 with a later build? Maybe someone could post their early 70 Judge build dates in a seperate post to help determine when Gm (Pontiac) went from 69 to 70 models.

Don't want to hijack the thread, but if your engine is original would you post some date codes please?

[6804gto]

Originally Posted by LPete

Don't want to hijack the thread, but if your engine is original would you post some date codes please?

No the original WS is long gone. Would love to find a late date coded WS for it. I just bought one from a guy in Kentucky that turns out it was restamped. Now he will not take it back or refund my money (long story). I might have to start a new post about this issue but I am trying to resolve this with him before I discuss it to much on this forum. I will try to post a picture of the WS code from this block on a new thread. I ran the Vin# on the block thru PHS & it came back a 69 Grand Prix with a WD or WE motor. My fault for taking the mans word that it was legit and not checking the vin # before I bought it. Live & learn

[north]

Originally Posted by 6804gto

I have a Fremont built Judge with a 07C build date & a 07/28/69 ship date. Anyone have a 69 with a later build? Maybe someone could post their early 70 Judge build dates in a seperate post to help determine when Gm (Pontiac) went from 69 to 70 models.

the latest judge phs i have is an Atlanta built car shipped on aug 5th.
on a related note i check my gto's and found:
Latest : Atlanta built car shipped on the sept 17th 1969
earliest : Fremont built car shipped sept 19th 1968 (vin is 600ish)

i heard from a neighbour many years ago who worked at the local plant that the assembly plant model year switch overs were staggered somewhat.

an interesting PHS i found is for a pontiac built gto dated sept 15th 1969 but with the lowest VIN i ever saw for a pontiac plant gto (69 gto's were not built at the home plant early in the model run). that VIN would indicate that the car was built almost six mounths before the shipping date. the reason for this seems to appear in the option list: after the last option is an extra line of text with no price: cc 3121 5-3. i assume this means it was a company car given to an employee and the shipping date is when the car was sold by gm not when it was built (note: it was not an unusual car, green automatic with average option load)

[68MeanVerdoroGreen]

Originally Posted by pmdclassics

When did they stop building the 69's and start with the 70 model Judges?

I have a late production Carousel Red Judge from Fremont, CA. Built 07D (Fourth week of July. Shipping date is 8/04/69. From what I was told, mid August was when production started for the next model year.

[SWEETJUDGE]

2/20/69 on my ship date