[70ra455]

I see the prices that w-30's are getting $200K for convertibles and close to 100K for hardtops with 4spds and I've got to wonder why the HUGE difference between the Pontiac prices and Olds prices for what I believe is almost the same exact engine?

Is the W-30 that much better than the Pontiac?

I would appreciate some education and enlightenemt here (and not just the Pontiac Truck engine blah blah blah.) There must be something going on.

[gto4door]

I don't think a 1970 455HO GTO is a good comparison to a 1970 442 W-30 car. The W-30 is the top performance package on the 442, so I would think a better comparison is the RA IV, which was the top performance package on the GTO. If you look at it that way the price gap narrows for what these cars are selling for in todays market. Similar to the RA IV Pontiac engines, a W-30 455 Olds is a "blue printed" engine with aluminum intake, special heads, camshaft and exhaust manifolds. The 1970 Pontiac 455 was a "D" port head engine, similar to what was available for a Bonneville.

[Steve Barcak]

I agree completely. Pontiacs top performance engine in '70 was not the 455 in a GTO. That is why they are not comparable to a '70 W-30.
On a side note. I took my drivers license test in a gold '70 W-30 442 4 speed conv.
Steve Barcak www.pontiacheaven.org
"Real Poontiacs only....no corporate nonsense!"

[70ra455]

I know all of that but isn't it true that the Pontiac engine and the Olds engine were rated the same horsepower? And just a huge note here: The W-30 is FAR OUTPACING THE RA4 as far as prices go.

STEVE - I bet you wish you had that convertible today!!

[gto4door]

[QUOTE=70ra455]I know all of that but isn't it true that the Pontiac engine and the Olds engine were rated the same horsepower? And just a huge note here: The W-30 is FAR OUTPACING THE RA4 as far as prices go.


Your correct, horsepower was about the same. ’70 455 GTO = 360hp vs 70 455 442 = 365hp (W-30 455 = 370hp). Torque is the same, both the Pontiac and Olds produced 500lb-ft. The Olds had a little more stroke 4.25 vs Pontiac 4.21. However, I don’t think engine specs have anything to do with the pricing of these cars today. I believe it is all perception related to several factors. First factor is production numbers, there were far fewer ’70 442s produced (19,330) than ’70 GTOs (40,149). Breaking it down further 3,100 W-30s vs 4,146 455 GTOs produced in 1970. Today, there are probably fewer 442s and W-30s that show up on the auction block or listed for sale in publications. Second factor is the “big block/big engine” perception, in 1970 GTOs came standard with the 400CID vs the 442 came standard with the 455CID. So there is the perception out there that all ‘70 442s come with a “big block” and the GTO comes with a “small block” (which you and I know isn’t the case with Pontiacs). With this “big block/small block” mentality out there, the average prices of a standard 400 cid GTO, probably pull the average price down of the ’70 455 equipped GTOs (kind of like the small houses pull down the price of the big houses on the same street). Third factor is the Marketing perception out there originally created by GM that within the GM family of brands, Oldsmobiles were known to be more expensive and better engineered than Pontiacs. And the last factor, there are probably buyers out there that want something different to own and show other than a Chevelle SS or a Pontiac GTO and willing to pay more to own something less seen on the show field. That’s my take on all of this. Today's market is really wierd, other than perception I still can't figure out why a Hemi Cuda Convertible goes for so much more money than a '69 T/A Convertible?

[70ra455]

Interesting GTO and thanks for the input. I know the GTO was rated at 360 horses but the G.P. engine of the same exact kind was rated at 370! I believe you're right. It's just perception but I think that leaves lots of upside for my '70 455 w/ram air 4spd convertible as investors finds out about these disparities (as well as leaving more upside for the hardtops - there is alot of room there!)

[TR]

I agree the GTO 455 really was the same as the 370 HP engine used in the larger cars. Make no mistake though: The '70 Olds W-30, made much much more than 370 HP ( I've read 410-420 ), and would soundly out mph a ( '70 ) 455 GTO in the 1/4 mile, especially the manual trans ones with the wilder cam. The 370 HP is just the usual fudging of 10 lbs/hp limit GM put on their non-Chevrolet intermediates.

Buick's "360 HP" Stage-1 was another in that category. Funny reading the more naive testers stating that the somewhat underwhelming 360 HP number is offset by the 500 lb/ft of torque@2800. Baloney. No way will 360 ( SAE gross ) HP power a heavy Buick GS through the quarter at 103 MPH, regardless of the torque reading. It may have actually made 360 HP @ 4600, but it was not the peak. That's another 425 HP monster.

[Lloyd-TX]

Great thread!

As others have stated, one cannot compare a W30 442 to a 455"HO" GTO. A more fair comparison is the RA IV GTO to the W30 442. Both were the top perf option in their respective division, as were the LS6 Chevelle and the Stage 1 Gran Sport.

As has been discussed many times in the past, it's quite a shame that Pontiac didn't choose to build a high-compression RP 455 for 1970, or better yet a RA V 455 or even 400.

A 308/320 cammed RA IV or RA V style 455 would have RIPPED - given some forged rods of course!

I would imagine that their hands were tied by the same GM corporate "gods" who let the (underrated) 450 horse LS6 Chevelles be produced, depsite the 10 lb/HP rule.

[70ra455]

TR - wasn't the '70 Pontiac 455 actually the 400 HP range as well?

Check this out! Think it will actually move for this price?

http://web.mac.com/drewberlin/iWeb/7...O/Welcome.html

[TR]

Originally Posted by 70ra455

TR - wasn't the '70 Pontiac 455 actually the 400 HP range as well?

No, not really. It was a station wagon engine that put out what it was rated at. 95-96 MPH in the quarter in a GTO; Not exactly a slug, but well behind the 102-103 MPH ( slowest original test I saw was 100.22 mph ) of the W-30 Olds.

[TR]

Forgot to mention. Guy who worked with my father in the early 70's had a beautiful orange '70 442 W-30 4-speed. Other than tuning tricks, the engine was stock, but he did run full-length headers. We went to National Speedway in Islip NY once and I was surprised how quiet the car was. I don't remember what his ET's were but I do remember him saying his speed was 107 MPH. He did bolt on slicks with plain black steel wheels ( which I though were ugly as hell on such a nice car ) but given that speed, with good traction, a 12 second car probably. It's really that car that gave me the muscle car bug, but I didn't become a Pontiac man till 10 years later.

[P@blo]

So is the 70 W30 455 a round port engine and if so you should put it next to a 455 Super duty at over 10:1 compression. Otherwise the W30 has the compression advantage over the SD or HO engine due to the drop in 1971. No round port Pontiac 455 in 1970 and there was is 71 but at a lower compression. here is some stock times to mull over:


1970 (W-30) 455/370: 0-60 in 5.7 sec, 1/4 mile in 14.2 sec @ 100mph 442

1970 400/366 Ram Air III: 0-60 in 6.0 sec, 1/4 mile in 14.7 sec @ 98mph.GTO

1971 455/335 (HO): 0-60 in 5.9 sec, 1/4 mile in 13.9 sec @ 103 mph. firebird

1970 400/370 (RA IV): 0-60 in 5.6 sec, 1/4 mile in 13.9 sec @ 102 mph. firebird


It has only 2 MPH over the little 400 in a GTO and is slower than the lower compression 71 455 HO. The 70 400 in the F body would be the same or very similar performance. I bet a 1970 455 D port would do just fine against the Old's 455 but the olds guy's are weird about their W30. My wife's uncle told me he had a 70 W30 that was almost 600 horse on regular pump gas and would do 11 seconds flat without a posi....man it was hard to keep a straight face. Especially when he told me he had his buddy time it on his wrist watch and guessed how long a 1/4 mile was...lol

[gto4door]

Another theory as to why the W-30 may sell for more in todays market is the cost of restoration. I'm not certain of this, however it may cost more to restore a '70 W-30 442 than a '70 455 GTO. There are probably fewer repo parts out there for 442s than GTOs. When was the last time you went to a swap meet and ran across an Olds W-30 aluminum intake, "F" code heads, "W/Z" code exhaust manifolds, OAI air cleaner, W-25 air induction fiberglass hood, "OW" code Turbo 400 transmission, Hurst dual gate shifter, rally pac guage cluster and all the other goodies that make up a W-30? Very rarely do I attend a swap meet and find an Olds vendor, but I can find at least one vendor selling Pontiac parts.

[70ra455]

Great information gentlement. I echo Lloyd ... great thread.

I thought the '70 GTO 455 did a 101 mph 1/4 in the original magazine testing. Does anyone have the article that compared the 455 ram air with the ram air 3? What were the times? What were the original tested times with the ram air 4? Which articles are you referring to?

Thanks again. I have the opportunity to buy a '71 W-30 convertible 4spd with a/c for about 35K - 40K ... I guess I should jump at it if it's still available. I'm going to call my old home town and see if it's still there since when I saw it last it was MINT.

['ol Pinion head]

'70 W30 Olds had better flowing cyl heads than std Pontiac D-ports, about 25 cfm better on the intake at 5.00 lift measured at 28".
Negative... heavier rotating mass for the Olds.

Want to compare the '70 GTO 455 to something comprable, compare it to the standard '70 442 455 engine.

[TR]

Originally Posted by 'ol Pinion head

Want to compare the '70 GTO 455 to something comprable, compare it to the standard '70 442 455 engine.

I agree. Better comparison. I never did see a what a non-Stage1 '70 Buick GS ran stock ( I've seen them run real fast today ), but it would be nice to compare to the Stage-1 too.

It's too bad Chevy grabbed all the good HP numbers while BOP's got "politically correct" ones...I mean... if it was all over in a year anyway, why not let them go out with a bang? I share Lloyds sentiment in wishing Pontiac had made a "RamAir IV 455".

[TR]

I'm not sure it's the exact article you had in mind, but I have a reprint of an April '70 article testing/comparing 70 GTOs. One is a 455 Auto-trans A/C car and is equipped with hood ram air. The other is a fairly well optioned ( but no A/C ) RamAir 3 4-speed car.

Due to traction/launching issues the 2 cars were not that different in ET: 14.6 vs 14.76 in favor of the 400 RA3. The 455 car's trap speed was just a few hairs under 96, the 400's car just a thin hair under 100. Some was weight related, but I doubt 4 miles an hour's worth.

[442w30]

Originally Posted by 70ra455

I have the opportunity to buy a '71 W-30 convertible 4spd with a/c for about 35K - 40K ...

The problem with that is 4-speeds were not available with AC due to the cam, which was more radical than the automatics. I know RAIII cars substituted a milder cam with the auto or AC, but Olds decided not to do the cam switch for the 4-speed.

And that brings to light another issue with the 4-speed: Which is faster? I believe the 4-speed cars were built to be modified with headers. The autos, with the milder cam, were engineered to remain more stock. Hence, 4-speed cars are a bit too radical for the street, and a good automatic would probably beat a 4-speed, stock for stock.

However, when it comes to '70 W-30 ragtops, the 4-speeds outpace the autos in value by a lot. Sure, the production is rarer (96 vs 168), but sometimes rarity doesn't make a difference (see Judge ragtops).

In comparison to a 455 HO GTO, I don't think there's any comparison. The W-30 rag is in a completely different league. I believe a W-30 rag would wedge between a RAIII and RAIV rag in desirability and value. If someone thinks they're outpacing GTOs, I think this is just an impression and not the truth. For one thing, with everything going crazy, collectors are going for the Tier 3 musclecars like the W-30 rags right now. The Tier 2 Judge ragtops have already gone crazy, and the Tier 1 Hemicudas have been out of this world for awhile. Just a theory . . .

[Judge273]

Here are a couple from Hemmings last month.

Seller Notes:
455 HO RAM AIR GTO Convertible #1 condition. Frame off restored with no expense spared.19 options This is an extremely rare PHS documented car. In 1970 GM made 241, 455 convertibles with automatic transmission. This GTO has the seldom seen 455 RAM AIR option. Considering this ultra-rare color combination combined with the 455 Ram Air option, this is probably the only one of its kind ever made.This car was produced in Pontiac, Michigan in early October of 1969. It has since undergone an extensive and complete frame-off rotisserie restoration with no bolt left unturned. The restoration is concourse, National Show quality level. The car is fully documented, complete with PHS (Pontiac Historical Services) documentation and original build sheets. This is a 100% numbers matching car. This car with its extremely rare and desirable Ram Air option makes it a valuable and important example of American Muscle Car history. $250,000 610 436 9171 [email protected]

Seller Notes:
All original numbers matching. Z code, California survivor. Not a parts car. Never any rust or accidents. Complete P.H.S. documents. All receipts and photos of ground up restoration. Professionally done. No expense spared. 455 H.O. convertible.One of 241 made. Turbo 400, A/C, disc brakes, posi-trac rear, bucket seats, tilt, remote, console and more. Palomino Copper w / sandalwood interior. 11-K paint job. This is a rare and beautiful GTO. If you haven't driven a 70 big block,I strongly recommend it. $197,000 310-530-2353 web.mac.com/drewberlin

[gloryrestoparts]

Originally Posted by Judge273

Seller Notes:
All original numbers matching. Z code, -->California survivor.<-- Not a parts car. Never any rust or accidents. Complete P.H.S. documents. -->All receipts and photos of ground up restoration.<-- Professionally done. No expense spared. 455 H.O. convertible.One of 241 made. Turbo 400, A/C, disc brakes, posi-trac rear, bucket seats, tilt, remote, console and more. Palomino Copper w / sandalwood interior. 11-K paint job. This is a rare and beautiful GTO. If you haven't driven a 70 big block,I strongly recommend it. $197,000 310-530-2353 web.mac.com/drewberlin

not picking on Mike, but aren't those above terms (between the --> and <--) mutually exclusive? is the car a survivor or a professional restoration?