[60man]

Anyone running a Snow Meth Injection set up? Want to get away from $$$$ Race fuel.
Think the cost of converting to E85 or a Snow water/meth system is a wash.
Guess it boils down to E85(Ethanol) or washer fluid(Methanol/water).
At $10-11.00 a gal it adds up fast and no cooling benefit to boot.
Thanks

[dammen8]

I used a AIS kit (http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/) on a procharged engine that I just built (I know you are asking about NA) but anyway I was a bit worried and was not sure I believed the hype... I tell you what, we tuned the engine on 91 octane with 14psi and it made 890 hp (may have been a little less) well the tune was happy so we just for giggles put the AIS kit on the engine on the next pull with the same tune made 934 hp... I was real surprised and impressed... I will say this, it has me seriously thinking about going that route with my engine.. If you have any questions call AIS the guys name is Rodney but plan on being on the phone for a while as he is willing to explain everything in depth with you and he will more than likely have lots of questions about your set up..

Chad

[60man]

Thanks Chad. I'm still rattling the final specs around in my head.
Will check out when I am more conclusive. I want a cooler running
motor in process. Straight Alki has too much baggage for me. I ran it a lot in
my old 2 Strokes.

[Tom Vaught]

70 bird, in the boost section uses a Snow Performance kit and has lots of experience with one. I have seen the car/kit in person and am very impressed with the basic installation.

There was a nice piece on the Spike Channel about the "Snow P" stuff too.

I may buy a set of Snow Performance parts for some research work I want to do.

Tom Vaught

[harry k]

Tom
this is what i think you saw on Spike TV ?if not here is indept on Snow products
http://www.powerblocktv.com/player/s..._num=HP2011-17

[60man]

That's where I first saw the Snow set up, on Power Block. Rather caught my attention.

[LiL Jack]

Troy, it sounds like you want to slam your D#*k in a sliding glass door a few times with this snow meth injection.

Keep it simple, and just stick with the race fuel.

[60man]

Originally Posted by LiL Jack

Troy, it sounds like you want to slam your D#*k in a sliding glass door a few times with this snow meth injection.

Keep it simple, and just stick with the race fuel.

That's why I'm leaning toward E85 Jack. Not being cheap. Just looking for a cooler
running fuel. Cooler combustion temps mean lower maintenance to me.
Am I right Mr. Vought ?

[Tom Vaught]

the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics, in studies aimed at increasing the power from aircraft piston engines, came to the following conclusion: “The data indicated that water was a very effective internal coolant, permitting large increases in engine power as limited by either knock or by cylinder temperatures.”

Engine power production, referred to as brake mean effective pressure (BMEP), is measured by taking the average effective pressure of the cylinders as they progress through intake, compression, ignition, and exhaust strokes. Added power comes as a result of greater pressure, but a higher temperature inside the cylinder accompanies greater pressure. These higher temperatures can lead to detonation, referred to as engine knock, or pre-ignition, both of which are cases where the fuel-air mixture burns in an undesirable manner and can be destructive to an engine. To combat knock and pre-ignition as power increases, a richer air-to-fuel ratio is normally required. If the addition of extra fuel doesn’t provide enough knock protection, then a higher-octane fuel, which is more resistant to knock and pre-ignition, may be used. However, once the knock limit of a higher-octane fuel is reached, can anything be done? This is where a water injection system presents an appealing option.

The issue may be that cooling the charge may not be enough vs the higher octane fuel.

Tom Vaught

[60man]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics, in studies aimed at increasing the power from aircraft piston engines, came to the following conclusion: “The data indicated that water was a very effective internal coolant, permitting large increases in engine power as limited by either knock or by cylinder temperatures.”

Engine power production, referred to as brake mean effective pressure (BMEP), is measured by taking the average effective pressure of the cylinders as they progress through intake, compression, ignition, and exhaust strokes. Added power comes as a result of greater pressure, but a higher temperature inside the cylinder accompanies greater pressure. These higher temperatures can lead to detonation, referred to as engine knock, or pre-ignition, both of which are cases where the fuel-air mixture burns in an undesirable manner and can be destructive to an engine. To combat knock and pre-ignition as power increases, a richer air-to-fuel ratio is normally required. If the addition of extra fuel doesn’t provide enough knock protection, then a higher-octane fuel, which is more resistant to knock and pre-ignition, may be used. However, once the knock limit of a higher-octane fuel is reached, can anything be done? This is where a water injection system presents an appealing option.

The issue may be that cooling the charge may not be enough vs the higher octane fuel.

Tom Vaught

In short ......guess I should go with E85.
I have some gas stations within 10-15 miles of my home.

[T Syron]

Originally Posted by 60man

In short ......guess I should go with E85.
I have some gas stations within 10-15 miles of my home.

Troy,
I have been told that you can't trust the percentage of ethanol from the pumps. It's supposed to be all over the place. Maybe check into it before you make your decision.

Good luck,
Tom Syron

[T Syron]

From VP race fuel website.


NEW! C85™
If you’re committed to using E85 type fuels, C85 is by far your best choice. Conventional E85 fuels are notoriously inconsistent, requiring up to a two-jet swing in tuning from one batch of E85 to the next. By contrast, C85 is blended with a consistent proportion of ethanol and every other component in every drum. In addition to taking all the guesswork out of tuning, C85 makes up to 4% more power and torque than conventional E85. With higher quality pure components, C85 is superior to E85 in terms of cooling effect, resistance to detonation and even includes corrosion inhibitors to fight the issues presented by ethanol. C85 works well in drag racing, oval track, off road and virtually any other automotive application, in particular forced induction applications due to its lower vapor pressure. Tests of C85 indicate most applications will require richening up by 1 jet size, or 2-3% over current jetting. Note that for racers unwilling to invest in the new carb and expensive fuel system upgrade required for E85, VP’s MS109, VP113 and Q16 continue to be the best race gas alternatives for the money.


Tom Syron

[60man]

Originally Posted by T Syron

Troy,
I have been told that you can't trust the percentage of ethanol from the pumps. It's supposed to be all over the place. Maybe check into it before you make your decision.

Good luck,
Tom Syron

Yep..I know. Most of the E85 Guru's have that covered to.. You can get a test kit and just change your tune to compensate for variences... More jet,add some race fuel, or both...
As far as that goes....can you trust Race Fuel octane ???

The fuel suppliers raise price of E85 right up to Race fuel prices ..

Sorry but $11.00 a gallon sux..

[Goat-Racer]

I installed a Snow dual nozzle kit on my 421 just before Drag Week back in '06. The new heads (my current ones) had just gone on the motor and the compression ratio was now 11.4:1. The plan was to run the mid West's finest 93 octane pump gas and the WM injection. We started the first day and ended up a few tenths behind the class leader. In an act of despiration, I turned off the WM and went a tenth faster. It just turned out that the combo was safe enough to not need the extra protection, and I may have been spraying too much mixture to boot, but there is only so much real estate inside of the intake manifold. That and the fact that water doesn't burn. Mine just didn't need it or benefit from it.
Your higher CR may like it over what I had.

End of Drag Week story: front shock and rear tire pressure tuning gained us another few tenths and eventually gave us the small block NA class win!

[chrisinestes]

What about windshield juice squirtation for street use? It's looking like I'm going to end up with between a 10:1 10.5:1 CR on my 406ish ci with #62 heads. Yeah, at sea level pump gas wouldn't cut it, but up here, at the 5000 to 7500 feet this engine will live, you can get away with a lower octane fuel w/o pre-ignition. But... if I still get pre-ignition, would a injection system like this save my butt?

Chris

[Tom Vaught]

Agree, Water Injection takes up "Air Molecule Space".

You basically reduce the chamber volume for air (which is needed to make the power when the right amount of fuel is added) so you possibly reduce the knock tendency but give up power doing it. Crappy fuel or the cost of fuel causes people to do lots of weird band-aids.

Tom Vaught

[6TEE8GTO]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Agree, Water Injection takes up "Air Molecule Space".

You basically reduce the chamber volume for air (which is needed to make the power when the right amount of fuel is added) so you possibly reduce the knock tendency but give up power doing it. Crappy fuel or the cost of fuel causes people to do lots of weird band-aids.

Tom Vaught

Water/Meth injection isn't a band-aid. It DOES raise effective octane rating. This is a proven fact. These systems are very popular with supercharged/turbo setups. The knock on them (pun intended) is that if the delivery vehicle (pump or nozzle or controller) fails, you can have a motor meltdown. In other words, when they work, they work as advertised- You can run more boost, more compression and more timing and make huge power with them. Several of the systems have fail-safe systems like sensors, low fluid interlocks, etc. But some guys opt for C16 for the peace of mind.

You can wire a retard system where, if the system fail-safes are triggered (for example if the fluid level in the tank runs low) then timing is pulled way back to prevent meltdown. These can be incorporated into a non-boosted app as well.

There's pros and cons for sure guys, but it's not really correct to refer to meth injection as a band air or to say it does not raise octane rating of the fuel it's mixed with in the intake system, because it most certainly does.

[Goat-Racer]

No doubt that in a boosted application. the WM system can be a huge benefit. The basis of this discussion though is use in a naturally aspirated engine. I think thats where things can differ a bit. Every combination will respond different.

[6TEE8GTO]

Originally Posted by Goat-Racer

No doubt that in a boosted application. the WM system can be a huge benefit. The basis of this discussion though is use in a naturally aspirated engine. I think thats where things can differ a bit. Every combination will respond different.

Agreed, and the thing I should clarify is Tom said "water injection" and I should have read closer. The methanol and water mix however will work on an NA motor also for raising effective octane rating.

In your case, I think you are right; your mixture was probably not of benefit to your application and any benefit of reduced detonation was offset by the the fact that higher octane fuel burns slower and makes LESS power if you don't need it. You obviously know what you're doing, so I assume you tried to run more timing with the meth and it didn't matter. You were in competition and didn't have time to start experimenting with the mixture, you wanted to WIN. (Congrats by the way!)

But we shouldn't discount the possibilities here. If you have a high compression N/A motor combo that needs 110 or 116 to be able to run aggressive timing advance, you could opt for a meth kit and properly setup it could cost less than race gas in the long run and be a lot more convenient.

I think most guys haven't looked at this for an NA setup because the kits have been marketed to the blower/turbo crowd.

Snow's 20020 kit is for N/A combos. And another guy mentioned AIS, I know Rodney, he sold me a kit several years back for one of my Mustangs. I had a Novi 2000 on a big-bore 347 and it was a very comprehensive kit. AIS also makes an NA kit with a pump in the tank.

Not trying to cause trouble here, hope I'm not being seen that way. Just trying to add to the discussion is all..

[Goat-Racer]

No hurt feelings here. I'm sure that is some potential on a higher compression NA engine as well. I'm totally sold on the boosted applications!