[Wakepowell]

Check out the PHS on this loaded Palladium Silver Judge. Especially the dates:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-GTO-...m=361396328332

[Lloyd-TX]

Dang - 29 options, including "THE JUDGE" option.

Doesn't your white IV car have more options than this one, Rob?

[Lloyd-TX]

Oops - forgot the dates. Definitely an engineering, show or brass hat car, Rob.

If Jim M. could be talked into looking, he'd find at least one more invoice for that car.

[starlightblack]

Looks like somebody wanted a Judge...and a Cadillac. What a stone that thing must've been (be)

[tripower]

Special car to say the least. Could this have been for the Auto Show? 70 Judge delivered to the Dealer in late March 71 as a new car? Note what appears to be the original window sticker has "22,000" miles written on it. Has to have a story that comes with it besides it having a 72 dash.

[g68mike]

Pretty cool, was ordered by 04 995 Pontiac Division, Maryland Zone office, and after use was auctioned off to the winning dealer in Maryland for $2302.00 in 1971 with 22,200 miles.

[MikeNoun]

That is definitely NOT the original window sticker. It's one of the PHS repros that was printed on the incorrect 1972 form. Someone just photocopied the PHS repro and then wrote 22,200 miles on it, probably the last person that sold the car, because now it has 22,908 miles.

Cool car though, would like to know the story behind it.

Mike

[g68mike]

Thanks for the info on window sticker, at least the other sheet is correct with the winning bid.

[orejudge]

I looked at that car,non numbers everywhere, phs does not match the cowl, blue interior on cowl but black on phs and no vin on frame.The engine deviation code got me going though, definitely left the factory without the original engine. Does anyone know what pct.car for $180.00 is ? That late in the year could not be a zone car, maybe a new hire wanted one.

[orejudge]

Oops that was for 152.00

[Kenth]

Looks like the rear stripes are on wrong side.

[johnta1]

phs does not match the cowl, blue interior on cowl but black on phs and no vin on frame.

Maybe the 'Change Alert' was for the interior color change?

The cowl tag rivet looks very suspect on the right?

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by orejudge

Does anyone know what pct.car for $180.00 is ?

Oops that was for 152.00

To avoid saying "all" (bad word with PMD)
Most all Invoice Era cars being sold after whatever type of use had that notation.
Most all the 70 GTO's - used the same lingo/amount of 152.80 based off the Base Price of a 70 GTO.
And then another amount based off the Option Content price.
The amount of options will make the OPT price vary from car to car.

For example
5 PCT. CAR $152.80 OPT 61.05

Its a bean dip number for the bean counters.
Not exactly 5% using standard math.
Its bean dip common core hoochie goochie witchcraft math .. no big deal

Usually just below that text, in left corner, will be either *30 or *35

From what has been described so far, it was indeed some type of internal use vehicle.
The lengthy time frame is uncommon, but we see them like that once in a while, again and again.
Many choices of facts and speculations to explain or romanticize these examples.
When they have 2 or 3 Invoices on hand it helps a lot too.

[g68mike]

Orejudge said "the engine deviation code got me going though, definitely left the factory without the original engine"

I never knew that, is that true they sold cars without the original engine and that's what the eng 339 deviation means?

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by g68mike

...and that's what the eng 339 deviation means?

No.

Engineering / Development - Car # 0339

This is either Invoice #2 or #3 for this car.
It is a multi-invoice car from PMD .

[g68mike]

lol ok, so we don't know for sure this left the factory without the original engine like Orejudge suggested?

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

I thought he was sort of joking about that. lol

Ram3 Auto A/C non-Posi more than likely still had its #'s drivetrain intact when O'Donnell sold it to someone.

They only put 3 months / 3000 miles on these cars - whichever came first.
Unless noted otherwise (Over 3 Months or Over 6 Months etc...) - when they were used/sold in this manner.

Full warranty included.

Ore did suggest it is completely Non-Matching #'s now.
So thought he just sorta threw all that together tongue in cheek or sumpn.

IF something went haywire during use, they would have put another new duplicate engine in the car before it left PMD. Or destroyed the car.
Whichever made more sense depending on car condition overall.

This car could/should actually be called "Test Car # 0339"
But any testing it might have done, would have been more mundane.
Maybe it was tested for MPG or potential electrical conflicts.
More of that nature, if any at all.

Sometimes things fall under an umbrella for the bean counters etc.
It looks more like a brass hat's Eldorado on the Invoice, than a Test Car.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Heck of a good write up on those Keith !
Thanks for taking the time to do those and share with us all.

And an awesome little book shared by Mike too !

Like Keith has said - in general not many true Engineering Test Cars finish their business in good enough order to be sold to the public with a full warranty. We are lucky when they do , and then come out of the woodwork to grab our attention on here.

We only have 5 firm documented Engineering Based cars from 1969-1973 pop up in the past 10 years on here. Talking only about cars brought to our attention that were previously unknown.

Once upon a time most folks on here were calling every car that popped up with xx-99x (other than xx-991) anywhere on the Invoice - an ENGINEERING CAR .
That was a hard tradition to break.
Without help from some guys like Keith, i'd still be fighting that battle.

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

This car could/should actually be called "Test Car # 0339"
But any testing it might have done, would have been more mundane.
Maybe it was tested for MPG or potential electrical conflicts.
More of that nature, if any at all.

Sometimes things fall under an umbrella for the bean counters etc.
It looks more like a brass hat's Eldorado on the Invoice, than a Test Car.

I didn't want to go too deep into explaining this last part , but maybe I will later.
Or in parts at a time. or sumpn

There are some finer points I was told to look for by some great resources I used to have years back. This one is just a little different than the other ENG/DEV Invoice case studies in the past - as far as the direction of some of the finer points.

Some things in billing may have been mildly different in the 60's and early 70's than what Keith got acquainted with starting in the late 70's when he went to GM.
Thats only a very very friendly speculation at the most. Not a guarantee.
Personally - I was 6 years old when this car was sold.
And been going to school ever since then - it seems like.

I'm hoping at least Invoice #1 will materialize for this car, or the buildsheet.
Either one would save a LOT of typing.
All the typing in the world won't prove anything better than a paper trail will.



[edit - not saying my theory can't be wrong, saying its too much trouble really to explain all the points that got me there. Lets see if some more paper unravels on this machine.]

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

I didn't want to go too deep into explaining this last part , but maybe I will later.
Or in parts at a time. or sumpn

There are some finer points I was told to look for by some great resources I used to have years back. This one is just a little different than the other ENG/DEV Invoice case studies in the past - as far as the direction of some of the finer points.

Some things in billing may have been mildly different in the 60's and early 70's than what Keith got acquainted with starting in the late 70's when he went to GM.
Thats only a very very friendly speculation at the most. Not a guarantee.
Personally - I was 6 years old when this car was sold.
And been going to school ever since then - it seems like.

I'm hoping at least Invoice #1 will materialize for this car, or the buildsheet.
Either one would save a LOT of typing.
All the typing in the world won't prove anything better than a paper trail will.

Anything is fair game, actually.

I personally have contented vehicles to be ordered by the fleet coordinator and placed in the development fleet with the expressed purpose of purchasing them on behalf of a friend when they timed out.

Didn't work out, though, when the "buyer" couldn't come up with the cash.

[MikeNoun]

Keith, great info, thank you. And BVZ doing great analysis as always.

I'm not at liberty to post the details or the contents right now, but I have a 1969 GM Proving Grounds spiral bound report titled "1969 Proving Ground Cars - Specifications and Engineering Test Summaries" marked GM Confidential that I hope to be reporting on in the near future.

Mike