[The Champ]

Ok, yesterday at my part time retirement gig, I went to one of the area hospitals to pick up donated blood from a Mayo Clinic blood drive and transport it to one of the Mayo labs for processing.

While exiting that hospital, I saw this:



A Nissan Leaf. But not a "normal" Nissan Leaf. Notice the rear fender skirts added for aerodynamic improvement of it's range.

When I first saw it, my mind flashed back to when I lived in Germany nearly 50 years ago, and the Citroen:



I thought the Citroen was ugly then and the regular Nissan Leaf is almost as ugly. But putting those fender skirts on only made it look worse.

And I seriously doubt that they really extend the range enough (or at all) to justify the time and expense to have them fabricated. And they didn't even paint them to match, so they stick out like a sore thumb.

[PontiJunk]

It feels like car makers will go to any length to improved an efficiency number on paper. I can't imagine the extra expense and engineering to have gas powered cars shut off at a stop light to save a gallon per year (guessing and maybe guessing poorly). If I get stuck waiting for a long train to go by, I will turn it off myself.

[Half-Inch Stud]

Originally Posted by PontiJunk

It feels like car makers will go to any length to improved an efficiency number on paper. I can't imagine the extra expense and engineering to have gas powered cars shut off at a stop light to save a gallon per year (guessing and maybe guessing poorly). If I get stuck waiting for a long train to go by, I will turn it off myself.

yes, i hear the absurdity of a gas engine start at residential stop signs. Is a wonder they dont roll thru to keep the engine running!

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by PontiJunk

It feels like car makers will go to any length to improved an efficiency number on paper. I can't imagine the extra expense and engineering to have gas powered cars shut off at a stop light to save a gallon per year (guessing and maybe guessing poorly). If I get stuck waiting for a long train to go by, I will turn it off myself.

These start/stop systems have been out long enough that I am seeing ALLOT of battery replacement now in my shop. Especially GM cars with the Ecotech 4-cyl. They use two batteries, a smaller one in the trunk for the power electronics and the larger one under the hood on top of the main computer. (brilliant) They are generally sold in a pair now and that can be required to maintain a warranty as they both fail more or less together every 3-4 years max at around $400-450.00 retail for the battery pair from a reliable brand. So with a regular battery costing $150.00 retail maximum, you have to save another $300.00 in gas before you break even every 3-4 years.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

These start/stop systems have been out long enough that I am seeing ALLOT of battery replacement now in my shop. Especially GM cars with the Ecotech 4-cyl. They use two batteries, a smaller one in the trunk for the power electronics and the larger one under the hood on top of the main computer. (brilliant) They are generally sold in a pair now and that can be required to maintain a warranty as they both fail more or less together every 3-4 years max at around $400-450.00 retail for the battery pair from a reliable brand. So with a regular battery costing $150.00 retail maximum, you have to save another $300.00 in gas before you break even every 3-4 years.

I have had "Stop/Start" on the last 3 EcoBoost lease vehicles I have driven.
In 9 years, I have never had a Battery Replacement required because I never
drive the vehicles beyond the 3 year lease.

The Battery finally did crap out on my wife's 2013 Ecoboost Escape but after
that many years, I am not complaining.

As far as the aero goes on the vehicles with rear "skirts" I never saw any improvements in the wind tunnel at street car city speeds.

Tom V.

[salem1912]

Charge stations.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

These start/stop systems have been out long enough that I am seeing ALLOT of battery replacement now in my shop. Especially GM cars with the Ecotech 4-cyl. They use two batteries, a smaller one in the trunk for the power electronics and the larger one under the hood on top of the main computer. (brilliant) They are generally sold in a pair now and that can be required to maintain a warranty as they both fail more or less together every 3-4 years max at around $400-450.00 retail for the battery pair from a reliable brand. So with a regular battery costing $150.00 retail maximum, you have to save another $300.00 in gas before you break even every 3-4 years.

I know that there was a two battery system back in the early days of GM start/stop technology, but I think that went away in 2016 or thereabouts.

I first drove a start/stop vehicle in 2013. I currently own a 2019 Equinox that uses a 48 AGM battery. My 2021 Cadillac CT4 also uses a 48 AGM battery.

Many people don't realize that you can't charge an AGM battery with a conventional battery charger, so that may be the cause of the premature failure.

Retail pricing of a 48AGM is under $200.00.

[66sprint6]

Up until recently I had a Bimmer with their exquisite inline 6. Silky smooth liquid power. But the start-stop feature was not seamless. I felt it to be intrusive sometimes, so I would just hit the overide on startup. Other times, just tooling around, I didn't mind it.

As far as these electric vehicles, the propulsion systems are pretty robust technology, but the next multi-billionaire will be the person that wins the battery race. For now, I'm wondering how much battery power is used just to transport a battery pack of up to 1,200 pounds around with you.

[Charlie Brengun]

This is a good example of what electric cars are good for as far as I'm concerned..

[einstein]

Originally Posted by PontiJunk

It feels like car makers will go to any length to improved an efficiency number on paper. I can't imagine the extra expense and engineering to have gas powered cars shut off at a stop light to save a gallon per year (guessing and maybe guessing poorly). If I get stuck waiting for a long train to go by, I will turn it off myself.

My take was the primary reason was to meet ever-increasing Federal CAFE standards. By raising the average, they could sell more SUVs without paying penalties.

https://www.autoweek.com/news/techno...week-explains/

I frequently drive rentals, and some have an off button for this "feature", some have some tricks to perform to disable it, and some you're just stuck with.

[455Grandville]

Originally Posted by einstein

My take was the primary reason was to meet ever-increasing Federal CAFE standards. By raising the average, they could sell more SUVs without paying penalties.

https://www.autoweek.com/news/techno...week-explains/

I frequently drive rentals, and some have an off button for this "feature", some have some tricks to perform to disable it, and some you're just stuck with.

I think it’s dumb idea with only short term gains.
Someone mentioned strain on the battery, and you’re putting a lot more wear on the starter and on the flywheel.
Many starters along with many components are made in China, does anyone really think Chinese auto parts are better built ? I don’t.
Just imagine if the starter finally gives out when you’re stuck in traffic with a 100 cars behind you, especially if you’re in the hood of St Louis.

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by 455Grandville

I think it’s dumb idea with only short term gains.
Someone mentioned strain on the battery, and you’re putting a lot more wear on the starter and on the flywheel.
Many starters along with many components are made in China, does anyone really think Chinese auto parts are better built ? I don’t.
Just imagine if the starter finally gives out when you’re stuck in traffic with a 100 cars behind you, especially if you’re in the hood of St Louis.

In fairness, most of the start/stop systems do not use a traditional starter. Some, like GM, use essentially a giant starter/generator. We would refer to it as a giant alternator. When called on to start, it becomes a starter and turns the engine through a very large and extra strong serpentine belt. Another common system is to have a motor winding built into the flywheel area, IE Toyota, and this energizes and spins the crankshaft to start. These parts of the system have been pretty robust but very expensive if service is actually needed. The big advantage is no grinding of starter teeth during the thousands and thousands of starts at every stoplight. Tough on batteries though. The small power electronics battery in a Prius is a three year item if your real lucky. The big batteries have been very long lived.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

In fairness, most of the start/stop systems do not use a traditional starter. Some, like GM, use essentially a giant starter/generator. We would refer to it as a giant alternator. When called on to start, it becomes a starter and turns the engine through a very large and extra strong serpentine belt. Another common system is to have a motor winding built into the flywheel area, IE Toyota, and this energizes and spins the crankshaft to start. These parts of the system have been pretty robust but very expensive if service is actually needed. The big advantage is no grinding of starter teeth during the thousands and thousands of starts at every stoplight.

Came here to say this.

K

[Lemans64]

Some of the Prius models have aluminum wheels but have hubcap to make it more aerodynamic, LOL.
Might same a few lbs on the wheel weight I guess.

[Vid]

My ‘18 Volvo V90 wagon shuts off at stoplights when it’s in “Eco Mode” or “Comfort Mode”. I always thought it to be true that cars use more gas starting back up from being off, than versus just leave it idling within a reasonable amount of time of course. I’m probably wrong since the auto industry has a little more research invested in that than my old wives tales from the’70’s, hahahaha. That being said, I don’t see any significant fuel savings when it’s in Eco Mode, than when I put the car in “Performance Mode” (and it doesn’t shut off at stoplights in Performance). But it NOTICEABLY hauls ass more when it’s in Performance mode.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stuart]

The auto shutoff is for reducing emissions as well as for economy. This article helps explain, in city driving with lots of stoplights it can improve your mileage: https://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/...save-fuel.html

As for the skirts on the Leaf, the owner must be a hypermiler; they like making modifications to their cars to get as much mileage as they can. It really isn't all that different than people who try to improve the performance of their cars...they have different end goals but both groups do things that may or may not help that much. The enjoyment is in trying things out to see what works.

[Vid]

Originally Posted by Stuart

The auto shutoff is for reducing emissions as well as for economy.

Yes the emissions aspect seems to make more tangible sense than straight fuel savings. Thanks for posting that article.

My first brand new car was an ‘88 Festiva, one of those pregnant roller skates, lol. I was a young man with a career in sales and was after the most economical car I could find. I did a number of tweaks to that thing from maxing out the ignition timing, the tire pressure, to a home made “Ram Air” induction system made with dryer vent hose. Ford (made by Kia, actually) rated it at 46mpg highway but I was getting 52! Damn I wish I tried the fender skirts, haha.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[455Grandville]

Originally Posted by Stuart

The auto shutoff is for reducing emissions as well as for economy. This article helps explain, in city driving with lots of stoplights it can improve your mileage: https://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/...save-fuel.html

As for the skirts on the Leaf, the owner must be a hypermiler; they like making modifications to their cars to get as much mileage as they can. It really isn't all that different than people who try to improve the performance of their cars...they have different end goals but both groups do things that may or may not help that much. The enjoyment is in trying things out to see what works.

Those savings will be eaten up when your starter goes out from all the extra use, especially in stop & go traffic I deal with.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by 455Grandville

Those savings will be eaten up when your starter goes out from all the extra use, especially in stop & go traffic I deal with.

The starters are designed to handle the additional use, they aren't the starters of old.

[455Grandville]

Originally Posted by Stuart

The starters are designed to handle the additional use, they aren't the starters of old.

According to whom ?
Many of these electrical components are manufactured in China.
Chrysler minivans aren’t even making it to 100k.