[BLKBRD]

Here is my rather sad tale. I bought a '69 RA IV Judge roughly three years ago. I was told that it had the "correct numbers matching" engine. I inspected the engine and sure enough, the block code and VIN were stamped in the correct locations. The date code fit the build of the car, and the block cast number had the last 4 digits milled off and stamped with "2506". Having owned Pontiacs on and off for more than 25 years, I am familiar with the font size an type of the alphanumerics used in the factory stampings. The stampings on this block appear correct. Through the efforts of several PY members, we were able to determine that this car was missing its original engine at least as far back as 1981, and remained as such when the guy that I purchased it from bought the car in the 1992 time frame. It appears that the guy that sold me this car purchased the engine with a restamped block from some outfit in Michigan. Naturally, this information was never presented to me by the previous owner and I have been unable to speak with him regarding this. So, my question is this, how badly is the potential value of this car hurt by having a restamped block? The block that was used is not a SR block.

[Dick Boneske]

No one will ever know unless it is a 2-bolt main block and the pan is removed. If you plan on keeping the car, what's the difference? The engines are identical except for the four bolt mains. The heads, intake, etc. are another story, as they are unique to RAIV.

As you can see from the Barrett-Jackson auctions, numbers matching is getting to be a smaller factor each year. Camaros, Mustangs, Corvettes, and other popular collector cars with upgraded drivetrains are going for big bucks.

I would love to have a Judge with all the RAIV parts, but a 455 block marked like yours is-or not marked like yours.

[taximan]

Did it start life as a R.A. 4 ? PHS doc's ??

If so it will make a difference, but that much of one.

[BLKBRD]

The car is a PHS documented RA IV Judge. The block is a 400 block. I do not know whether or not it has 4-bolt main caps, as I've never had it apart. The engine and drive train had been recently rebuilt before I bought it. It is not difficult to convert a 2-bolt block to a 4-bolt, so even if it has 4-bolt main caps, it may still not be an original RA IV block.

[md1twal3]

[QUOTE=Dick Boneske]No one will ever know unless it is a 2-bolt main block and the pan is removed. If you plan on keeping the car, what's the difference? The engines are identical except for the four bolt mains. The heads, intake, etc. are another story, as they are unique to RAIV.QUOTE]

If BLKBRD figured it out...others can too (and will), so I don't agree that no one will ever know. I also agree that owning it this way and selling it this way are two different birds, but lets face it, sometime down the road in someone's life, it will be sold, and then what?

I was doing some reading on restamping in the auto hobby, and it seems to happen a lot, though still considered unethical. There are machine shops that are duplicating the factory machining patterns on the front of the engine and stamping them, making it very hard to identify.

I am not sure on value, though. I tend to agree that it is becoming less and less of a consideration as the price continues to go up for all types of muscle cars, but I would bet that there will still continue to be a considerable price difference for the collector of originals, that are collecting numbers matching, factory correct vehicles.

Sorry, not much help, but I will be watching this topic as I am curious of what the more educated PY members have to say about it.

[BLKBRD]

I would never sell the car as it was sold to me. I would divulge what I know. Unfortunately, you know that someone else down the road would sell it as the original engine. I have debated about "X" ing out the VIN to ensure that this is not the case. The configuration of this car is very unique as Judges go(white with black bench interior and auto on the column), so there are people out there that would recognize it and know that it shouldn't have the original engine.

[weranc55]

If it bothers you so much then buy a Sr block. I dont think the value of your car will be much less with a SR block. I'm surprised that someone would have gone through that much trouble in the early 90's.

[68bird400HO]

To me this brings up a couple of interesting theoretical questions.

1) What is the difference between restoring the motor by recreating an "original" block by restamping it and restoring a car by rebodying it? (I know rebodying has been discussed ad-nauseum on several boards and there are people firmly on both sides of that issue. I don't want to open up that can of worms here again.)

2) If someone goes to the trouble to recreate a RAIV block by starting with an appropriate date coded block, grinding and restamping the part number, resurfacing and stamping the vin and block codes, and converting it to a four bolt mains, would this be less damaging to the value than having an SR block or than having the correct coded block with the wrong vin#?

[Forrest]

What a coincidence! I was just asking about this in the `70 - 72 gto lemans tech page about sr blocks versus original #s matching blocks, i understand that rare blocks like the ram iv would make a difference but what about the ram 3 or standard 400 blocks as far as the sr blocks and the orig. #s matching blocks? especially when the sr. blocks are within the warr. period on the build date of the car?

[md1twal3]

Originally Posted by 68bird400HO

To me this brings up a couple of interesting theoretical questions.

1) What is the difference between restoring the motor by recreating an "original" block by restamping it and restoring a car by rebodying it? (I know rebodying has been discussed ad-nauseum on several boards and there are people firmly on both sides of that issue. I don't want to open up that can of worms here again.)

2) If someone goes to the trouble to recreate a RAIV block by starting with an appropriate date coded block, grinding and restamping the part number, resurfacing and stamping the vin and block codes, and converting it to a four bolt mains, would this be less damaging to the value than having an SR block or than having the correct coded block with the wrong vin#?

I was part of the last rebody debate The simple answer, for both sides of the "arguement" that you pose in #1 is...There is no difference. But, you're right...don't open that can of worms

To your point #2....It seems that an SR block is more acceptable than a restamp because you are doing the "closest to original" (as it came off the GM line), with genuine GM approved replacement parts. I could be wrong, but it seems that the majority of "The Hobby" sort of dictates what is really acceptible and what is not...SR is, restamps are not.

I have no doubt that BLKBRD wouldn't disclose it, but somewhere down the line, someone may not be so honest, and end up in the same position as he. Would a restamp bring equivelant to an SR...I would say likely, but neither will bring what an actual original numbers matching will bring, which is what BLKBRD is trying to get an understanding of...

[Bermuda Blue]

How were you able to determine the restamped status of the block? If you can document your findings and document that the car was advertised as having the original block, I believe you could sue the seller. Not knowing when the transaction took place, there are issues regarding statutes of limitiations and determining damages. In any case, i would go after the lying bastard who sold you the car. if lying bastards realize that cant get away with this kind of stuff, maybe it would stop.

I cant believe the number of liars and thieves in this hobby. It seems that liars and thieves are drawn to the pontiac hobby for some reason.

The following is a list of car values deterimined by engine status. I welcome comments and/or additions to the list.

1) Original motor
2) Correct SR block (i.e. SR WW motor for RAIV 4sp car) within warranty period
3) Correct SR block, outside warranty period
4) Correct motor (i.e. WW motor from another RAIV 4sp car, different VIN), correctly dated
5) Correct motor, incorrectly dated
6) Incorrect SR block (i.e. SR WT motor for RAIV 4sp car) within warranty period
7) Incorrect SR block, outside warranty period
8) Incorrect motor, correctly dated
9) Incorrect motor, incorrectly dated
10) Any non-pontiac motor other than a Chevy motor
11) Chevy motor

[taximan]

If you think there are a lot of crooks in the Pontiac hobby, it's nothing compared to Corvettes.

There are probably twice as many Big Block mid year Vettes today, then were ever built. At least Pontiac has PHS. Corvette has nothing but some frustrated science teacher that says he has enough pictures of block stampings to tell whether its original or not.

There are even garage shops that advertise for milling and re-stamping blocks to look original.

[The Boss]

What outfit in Michigan?

[68bird400HO]

High prices breed deceit. It is a function of the hot market that currently exists for all makes.

[Kevink70]

Well , ya gotta figure on how many of these cars were beat on and had rods come through the block .I personally think that restamping blocks sucks but it happens to alot of cars and probably will never stop.Its not only a problem with Pontiacs ,but in all of the musclecar world .
If a block is restamped,how can it be a numbers matching car?I seen alot of cars without their motors/trannys come in where I work ,then a few years later they magically have their original numbers matching drivetrain in them .Whats up with that?

[JKGTO]

I think on the engine value list a correct block with wrong date or VIN should rate higher than any SR block. Just check out what a WW block goes for vs. an SR block. Way more money. Of course here were talking about the rarest 69 RAIV block-XP code and 165 produced. I dont think I would fret about the restamped block. If the date code is close to the build date-a RAIV car gets even more leeway than a normal car- then no one would even know its not original except you just told us. Putting in a SR block is not worth the hassle. Enjoy the car for what it is-one of the rarest 69 GTO hardtops made.

[BLKBRD]

I am not sure that it is not a real "XP" code RA IV engine that has had the VIN number restamped. Another PY member was familiar with this car more than six months before I purchased it. He had called the previous owner about another car that he had for sale, and was told about my car. At that time, the previous owner told him that my car had a correct "XP" code engine, but that it was not the original. I don't believe that the previous owner mentioned that it was a restamp. The previous owner told him that he bought the engine from an outfit in Michigan that built up these motors, and that he paid $8k for it at the time. Three or more years ago, $8k would have been a good deal of money for a complete RA IV engine. The advertisement that I saw for the car mentioned "correct XP code engine". When I called to inquire about the car, I asked if it was a numbers matching engine, and I was told that it was. I spent roughly one week conversing with the previous owner over the phone and via e-mail while attempting to obtain part numbers and date codes of other engine components. I had already purchased a plane ticket before the owner had confirmed that the tranny was also numbers matching. The guy either did not know where to look for the part numbers and date codes, or put on a good act, because I had to direct him to almost every location. When I inspected the car, I verified that the date code, block code, and VIN all appeared correct. I guess that I should have asked if it was the original engine. I naively thougtht that I was asking that by asking if it was numbers matching. The car had been for sale for at least six months before I inquired about it. I suspect that the previous owner had trouble selling it honestly, so he chose to sell it dishonestly. In the package that I received with the car was a list of handwritten items that the previous owner jotted down regarding the car. It appears that this was a list of items that he intended to include in an advertisement. One of the items listed specifically said "Numbers matching engine".

[weranc55]

I'm sure the car is worth probable double what you paid for it. I would much rather have a Sr block than someone elses WW block. I dont know why people pay so much for the WW's when they are wrong for their car.

[Steve Hoog]

This car has cool background story from the dealership it was delivered too.

I know a guy here in Tulsa that is going to check his IV stock to see if he has the mate to BLKBRD's car. If anyone out there has a lost IV block, don't be shy to try and help BLKBRD out. I'd like to see the two come back together.

[BLKBRD]

In case you guys haven't guessed by now, Steved400's investigative work was instrumental in determining the history of this car. I can't thank him enough... I think.