[Ram4king]

These guys selling this car are a joke!!! They are probably the same people who were selling the motion GSX car. They only ran that car up on ebay to get people talking because its going to russo and steele!!!
This one is most likely headed there also.
As an owner of one of the best 69 ram iv judges out there, I too was hoping to see what a car of this caliber was going to bring!! Id like to see them go up in value like any of you guys holding on to one, but are we to believe bull**** like this when people pull such a lame scam like this??? I was a believer in it untill it went over 250K. Its a shame because now sensible people are up in arms thinking all their ram iv's are worth a million!!! I have a friend with my old 70 black ram iv judge who just finished a nut and bolt frame off on it and trust me it would put this car to shame and last week he would have kissed someone to give him 200k for it but now its not for sale at any price!!! Im reading some of the comments some of you are making thinking your car is worth more than they are too! Its messing with everyones head!!! WHAT A FN SHAME!!!!!!!!! I liked it better when i bought my first ram iv judge for the princely sum of 6000.00 in 1984. I remember everyone telling me i was crazy to spend 3 grand more when ram iii's where bringing 2500-3500. They all said its not worth the difference.
IMAGINE THAT!! And i only did it for the difference in the performance!
WHERE WILL WE BE IN 10 YEARS?

[PonchoV8]

There shouldn't be any confusion as to why I, and some others are not Judge people.

[The Boss]

Prediction:

Auction will now end early because item is no longer available for sale.

(Seller put a very high bid in and now won't want to pay the fee.)

[Judge273]

If someone has an address or phone number for the seller, I will check it out as I am not too far away.

My 3 ebay questions have gone without an answer. All I know is his name is Don, and car is in Geneva, IL. Someone stated they talked to him?

I agree with the R4King on this one. Major hype for a future auction is what is happening on both RA IV Judges. It's only a matter of which auctions they go to this winter.

[allenshotrods]

The car is owned by joe from the parts place! this guy is selling it for him.

[Daves67GTO]

Anybody look at the seller's feedback? I agree with Ram4King and The Boss. I have been trying to buy another RAIV car from a guy for quite a while and we were finally getting close to making a deal until he saw these RAIV auctions on ebay. Now he thinks his car is made of gold and covered with diamonds and wants to sell it on ebay. I guess time will tell. Wish I still had the RAIV Judge I stupidly sold a couple of years ago.

[1966sprint]

Hey allenhot rod, I looked at this car yesterday, Believe me its not
" JOE'S" . This car is everything the seller says it is. Apparently some 0 and low feedback guys are messing with this auction. Im sure those bidders will be perged from it. But it is a really nice car. How do i know this??? I build cars for a living and its a quality job...Besides whats wrong with gto's pulling what the cudas pull in respect to $$$$$$ ???

[GTOnly70]

I find that those who are vehemently opposed to "Pontiac Police" or "Numbers ****s" checking out their cars generally have something to hide.

[Judge273]

Real bidders only is the lastest. A lot of big spenders without real cash?


Current bid: US $390,100.00
Get low monthly payments

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

End time: Dec-01-06 12:05:54 PST (3 days 1 hour)
Shipping: Buyer responsible for vehicle pick-up or shipping. Vehicle shipping quote is available.
Sells to: United States, Canada, Mexico
Item location: geneva, IL, United States
History: 47 bids
High bidder: User ID kept private

[dr-doug]

Food for thought, remember are Judges are well made good looking, good running cars, solid cars. Cuda's (Hemi)are cheaply constructed, hard to stay tuned, and not nearly as refined. Just shut the door on a good example of each one, you'll get the picture.
With that being said, value is a number, as are production figures. Desireability is a combination of rarity and esthetics, as well as value and the ability to increase....
Now this next number is shearly speculative, 50% of these cars still exist, either restored or restorable. These next numbers then in my opinion represent what once was, not what now exists.
Between 70-71 781 Hemi Cuda's were produced, of those 21 were convertibles(14 '70, 7 '71)
Between 69-71 11004 Judges were produced, of those 293 were convertibles(108 '69, 168 '70, 17 '71).

If I'm close in my assumption that 50% of these cars exist, there are 10 or so Hemi Cuda convertibles, and 147 Judge verts, almost 15 times more pontiacs.
As far as the hardtops, there are 380 Hemi Cuda's, and 5355 Judge hardtops, 14 times more judges than cuda's.

Since I'm not aware of exact production numbers for powerplants in judges, these numbers will have to serve as comparisons of Hemi Cuda's and Judges in general. Hemi Cuda's are @14 times rarer than judges, although Judges in my opinion are twice as esthetic. Therefore we need the guy off the show numb3rs to come in and weight these factors accordingly and we should be able to come up with the fractional "value" of judges VS Hemi cudas. Looks to me to be around 7 times.
If someone has the numbers for RAM IV cars that are judges, please share.
I don't think that are cars are suffering from a lack of respect, it's a factor of scarcity.
I'll save a couple of you 5 minutes....blaaa, blaaaa, blaaaaa. DW

[Judge273]

Some production numbers that are close, but not exact...

http://216.178.81.108/forums/showthr...uction+numbers

The Roundport Judges are rare and desirable, and rising in value in a dead musclecar market. Explain that?

[The Boss]

dr-doug,

Your comparison may work if you include the 440 Cudas - if you are doing a numbers comparison, RA IV & 455HO Judge Verts are lower production than most of the super cars out there now - including LS6 Chevelles.

Apples to apples.

[70ra455]

To say that RA4 cars are getting the respect of Hemis is only valid IF the bids on ebay are real. If, in fact, they are phony bids to make the car look more valuable (as per some market value) only to be brought to auctions then the jury is still out isn't it. In other words I could put my ragtop on ebay for 1,000,000 BIN and Reserve and make all the phony bids I want up until that number. Is the '70 455 HO Ram Air car then getting to Hemi territory?

Nope. It's all smoke and mirrors.

FACT: One of 17 1971 Judge Convertibles (455 HO) sold at auction for well under $200,000 just last year! Now Legendary is trying to get $495,000 for the car and it's been months and no offers at that amount.

These are facts and not some phony numbers.

BUT, I hope the RA4 Convertible gets $4 million because then my ragtop will be worth $1 million and it will be sold the next day.

[RAIVJUDGE]

Originally Posted by Judge273

The Roundport Judges are rare and desirable, and rising in value in a dead musclecar market. Explain that?

Why is everyone saying the market is so flat? Good numbers matching, correctly restored cars and survivor cars will always bring a premium no matter what the market is doing. Collectors are always looking to add good documented cars to their collections. Collectors know that when a market declines the lesser non numbers cars lose value faster then the numbers matching correct cars.

I don't know if that auction is real or not. But when is the last time a fully restored Black Ram Air IV Judge was up for sale in an open forum? Most of these cars change hands quietly and the price paid is never disclosed.

I have owned a Judge since I was 17 in the late 80's, when most people did not even know what the heck they were and think you were a guy that had an ego problem with The Judge stickers on your car. There are a couple guys posting here that I know that have been into these cars as long or longer then myself, it is a little bittersweet to see the prices rise on these great cars as well. But if you own one now you have to think can I afford to buy another one if I sell the one I own.

[allen smith]

RAIVJUDGE, personally, its not bittersweet to me that the Judge prices are rising. If a man owns any car, Pontiac, Cuda or whatever and ask 1,000,000 or more and can actually get it, then thats the American way. There is nothing illigal about it, and if a man knocked on my door and made a very outragously high offer for my car, I would take it.
I agree with the previous post that most of the super rare Judges etc never make it to market, but are sold privately, just like Reggie Jackson`s `triple black `67 427 Corvette that sits down the road from here.

[RAIVJUDGE]

Allen, don't get me wrong I am very happy the values of these cars are rising. I just meant that if you have a nice car you really need to think twice before you sell because down the road that car may be out of reach.

[allen smith]

I`m no expert, but i am predicting the value of the 60s - earlly 70s supercars will drop sharply never to rebound. most of young men 40 and under care little about these cars, and gets worse with each generation. Just look at the 20 somethings who think a Honda or Miata is cool.
Again, I`m no expert, but I have no interest in a 1932 A model. I really hope I`m wrong, because my car would make a nice retirement supplement in 12 - 15 years from now

[John Payne]

Just to set the record straight..the 71 Judge convert that Legendary is selling is Tropical Green..the car that sold at the estate auction is Laurentian Green..

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

The auction has been molested beyond repair.

And in addition, the big boys with genuine bucks don't play the "one better" bidding game - they wait til the end to do serious business. Especially once the reserve has been tipped. Anything else is the opposite of smart money.

It's very easy to ruin someones eBay auction like this, surprised we don't see more of it than we have. If it is seller imposed bluff, I agree with The Boss on how it will end.

[69RamAirDave]

Originally Posted by RAIVJUDGE

Why is everyone saying the market is so flat? Good numbers matching, correctly restored cars and survivor cars will always bring a premium no matter what the market is doing. Collectors are always looking to add good documented cars to their collections. Collectors know that when a market declines the lesser non numbers cars lose value faster then the numbers matching correct cars.

I don't know if that auction is real or not. But when is the last time a fully restored Black Ram Air IV Judge was up for sale in an open forum? Most of these cars change hands quietly and the price paid is never disclosed.

I absolutely agree. While many see the market as leveling, or even dropping, the "good" cars will keep value. What we are seeing is a seperation from the quality cars and the average/mediocre cars. Buyers are much more interested in quality and documentation.

Rare, high-dollar cars are not sold (in a significant percentage) on ebay. More times than not the auctions are for exposure and advertisement rather than to actually sell, so the bidding can be taken with a grain of salt in many cases. These type of cars usually go to auction or pass hands amongst the collectors.

Now Im not saying it never happens, and that this is the case with this particular auction, just that its not common.