[spartazoo]

Could you order a base 400 or any of the Ram Air engines in a 70 T-37, Tempest, or Lemans?

[Jack Peters]

It could be ordered with a 400 4bbl. There is great debate over whether it was the base GTO engine or the RA III. If you do a search you can probably find more.

General consensus is auto's had base engine. However when it was the 4 speed model then it becomes a bit more blurred. OPH probably will have more insight.

[UPC-WU2]

But no T-37 could be ordered with "Ram Air"
i.e. holes in the hood and cold air induction.

[John V.]

It is nonsensical to ask if you could order a "base 400" in a 1970 T-37, Tempest, or Lemans." Not saying this to yank your chain, but to try to clear up some confusion about these cars.

The model series offerings in 1970 were the 33 series Tempest, the 35 series Lemans, and the 37 series Lemans Sport. Specific Body Styles were offered within each series.

One thing I am not entirely clear about was the use of the T-37 badging. I do not know if perhaps the T-37 badging was a mid-year addition or if all 1970 33 series cars were badged as Tempest T-37, or if only the 2 dr. models (Style Code 23327 and 23337) got the T-37 badging. Whatever the case may be, the Tempest and the T-37 were not independent model series, they both pertained to the 33 model series. I believe the 2 dr. hardtop body style was a mid-year addition to the 33 model series offerings, touted as the lowest price 2 dr. hardtop intermediate in the industry (not including similar offerings from other GM Divs.) owing to the rubber flooring (carpet was an option), bench seat, etc.

A "base" configuration indicates the standard "no option" choice. In the case of the 33, 35, & 37 model series Pontiac A bodies for 1970, the base engine was a 6 cyl.

You could order optional V8's (a V8 was a mandatory additional option if you wanted the GT-37 Appearance Package Option available for the 23327 & 23337), starting with a 2 bbl 350 and moving on to the 2 bbl 400 (available with auto trans only) or a 4 bbl 400. For the 4 bbl 400 with auto trans, you got a non-GTO 400 which used the cast code 16 small valve heads (which were NOT the same as the '68 cast code 16 heads).

With manual trans you got the same code WT engine that was the base motor in the manual trans GTO.

In the past, it has been suggested that the man trans engine was the code WS, the RAIII GTO engine. This confusion was reportedly a result of John Sawruk once suggesting that the man trans 4 bbl 400 in a GT-37 was "essentially" the same as the Ram Air III motor. Not sure if he really stated that, or what he might have intended by it if he did say it. Perhaps it was because they both used the cast code 12 heads. But the most exceptional feature of the WS code motor was the HO exhaust manifolds and the WT lacked those, so was not "essentially" the same motor.

The Ram Air paraphernalia was not part of the engine assembly itself, Pontiac could have offered the WS code motor in a T-37 without having to include the Ram Air Hood and plumbing. But they didn't.

The top engine option for the '70 Tempest or Lemans then was a 4 bbl 400, the auto trans version was the XV code and was not shared with the GTO, the man trans version was the WT which WAS shared with the GTO.

[Jack Peters]

John, Good to see you chime in on this. There has been and probably be much discussion regarding the "T-37" moniker". As we have discussed and seen the T-37 in another thread here it was the "Tempest T-37" badging. In '71 it was "Pontiac T-37" but msrp stated "LeMans T-37".

I think we all still wonder where the "T-37" really came from. Kind of like todays 'G-6" and "G-5". or any other letter/number name plate. Unless there is discovered somewhere, in writing, we probably will never know. It was the first Pontiac of the modern era to have a name plate that has not been discovered what it 'really' means. I think!!

[unruhjonny]

"All American Classics" in Vancouver WA has several early T-37's in it's yeard, two years ago I stopped in and pulled a 1111148 distributor from a 1970 T-37.
That is definatly a 1970 L78 "YS" (350hp) - I do not have my McArthy book anywhere nearby to verify if the 1111148(L78) distributor was used in any G/P, or Tempest/Lemans specific version of the L78.

[John V.]

I don't know if all non-Ram Air 4 bbl 400's were UPC L78 for '70.

But my reference shows the 1111148 distributor for all 4 bbl auto trans 400 engines except RAIII and RAIV for '70 (all applications, A body, F body, and big car). So it should be a pretty common distributor. Engine codes with this distributor would be XH for the big car including GP, XV for the A body (except GTO), and YS (GTO & F body).

As outlined previously, you could not get the YS code engine in a non-GTO A body for '70.

['ol Pinion head]

The T-37/ GT-37 line did not come out til very late in the '70 model year. Somewhere in paperwork I have a copy of the memo (thanks Rocky) noting the intro of the GT-37. It's dated in late May 1970.

['ol Pinion head]

Trusting originally installed points distributors, as to what engine was under them originally under... well, not that smart. Trusting MPC's is even worse. Assembly workers @ the engine plant didn't always follow what was supposed to be installed when it came to distributors.

[John V.]

OPH, the '70 Tempest T-37 Hardtop Coupe didn't come out "very late in the '70 model year". It was available many months before late May.

The GT-37 was simply an option, not a specific model series. You are correct that the availability of this option was not announced until pretty late, though more than 2 months of production were still to come when it was announced in May. Still, it WAS a relatively late offering for the 33 series Hardtop Coupe and also offered for the 33 series 2 dr. Coupe (post), a model which had been available for the entire model year. Point is, availability of the T-37 Hardtop Coupe and the GT-37 option package were two separate things. Your post suggests they were tied together.

To get the GT-37 option, Pontiac required that a V8 engine option also be ordered. The late addition of the GT-37 option package had no bearing on what optional engines were offered for non-GTO Pontiac A bodies in '70 (33 series, 35 series, and 37 series) however, and that is the subject of this thread.

I stand by my assertion of which engine codes were possible in these cars.

As to the usage of the 1111148 distributor, if you are assuming I referenced an MPC, you are mistaken. My reference is derived from Delco Remy documentation.

I never doubt that mistakes were made during assembly. But I am also familiar with the Engineering Deviation and Engineering Change Notice procedures which is a better explanation for many of the variances we might come across today. An Engine Plant line worker who was unable to consistently install the correct distributor (either the current specified unit or a permitted Deviation) matched to the Engine Manifest Code of the unit being assembled was unlikely to last long.

I have no reason to suspect that unruhjonny came across anything but a correct XV code motor in a '70 A body with optional 4 bbl 400 and auto trans and the expected distributor was pulled out of that engine.

I have every reason to believe that this is a fairly common distributor since Pontiac would have produced quite a few '70 XH engines and this would also be the expected distributor in those engines. My point was to make unruhjonny aware that the engine in that '70 was unlikely to be a YS engine because the YS was not offered for the non-GTO A body (sure, a GTO engine might have been swapped into it) but that whatever the engine was that he pulled the distributor from, that distributor was not exclusive to the YS as he thought possible.

I don't charge for information, if I think I can be helpful to somebody here, I share what I know and if it is an opinion, I try to make that clear. IMO, too many opinions parade as facts. If it is your opinion that I don't know what I'm talking about, you're entitled to it. If you have facts that contradict what I have posted, just post them. Expressing an opinion for the purpose of casting doubt on what I posted without actual facts isn't helpful to me, I don't think it is valuable to anyone I am offering help to on this thread either.

[Lloyd-TX]

John:

I have come to sincerely appreciate your insight and (obviously) thorough knowledge concerning Pontiacs.

I've never seen any references concerning your experience, would you mind sharing how you gained your insight?

Many thanks in advance!

[BR57]

Originally Posted by John V.

One thing I am not entirely clear about was the use of the T-37 badging. I do not know if perhaps the T-37 badging was a mid-year addition or if all 1970 33 series cars were badged as Tempest T-37, or if only the 2 dr. models (Style Code 23327 and 23337) got the T-37 badging. Whatever the case may be, the Tempest and the T-37 were not independent model series, they both pertained to the 33 model series. I believe the 2 dr. hardtop body style was a mid-year addition to the 33 model series offerings, touted as the lowest price 2 dr. hardtop intermediate in the industry (not including similar offerings from other GM Divs.) owing to the rubber flooring (carpet was an option), bench seat, etc.

We had a 1970 Tempest 2dr. Coupe, a post car, when I was 12 or so. It only said Tempest no T-37. We bought it in September 1969, it was a 350 2bbl. Only other options were wheel discs and these big fat tires. It had no carpet and it had a plate covering the radio hole, seem to remember the speedo went to 140 mph. I assume it was made in Oshawa but don't know for sure. It was real cheap, like $2,900 or so. I know my Dad could burn rubber for half a block. I liked that car.

[unruhjonny]

Thanks John for the info! - I might have not been clear, but my referance to the "YS" was becasue that was the only L78 engine (aka: standard 400/4bbl) code that I knew off hand (for some reaon I really only keep Firebird info handy!).

Here's a related question:

I often hear of the GT-37;
Was the GT-37 the same package but on a Lemans instead of a Tempest (like the T-37)?
- I don't know of any information resource that explains the differnces between a GT-37 or T-37... or if the GT-37 phased out he T-37.

My 1971 Pontiac model line brochure doesn't even mention (to my recollection) the T-37... but it definatly does mention the GT-37.

I had always understood that in 1970 the "big-dog" of the motors available to the "regular" sized coupes (except G/P, GTO, and Formula/Trans Am), was the L78...

[John V.]

Not as interesting a story as you might think. Just a hobbyist like most here. Started in 1973. Bought a one owner, well worn '64 GTO convert for $135. Picked it because Special Interest Autos said it would be collectible one day, I needed a car, wanted a convertible, and it had to be cheap.

I just like solving puzzles and playing with numbers. Cars basically have always fascinated me. And I'm a glutton for anything associated with old Pontiacs.

So whenever there is some mystery associated with a Pontiac, I just find it fun to figure out the answer. It isn't rocket science, most Pontiacs were produced in high volume and you can usually collect info from a lot of cars to discover the answer you want. What I tend to be good at is interpreting the info to find the answer.

I'm just a car guy. Everybody has their particular interest within the hobby. One of mine is figuring out answers to all sorts of Pontiac questions.

[John V.]

BR57 & unruhjonny, I suspect your posts would have fit better at the other T-37 thread:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=462966

BR57, would be no surprise to me if only the Tempest 2 dr. Hardtop Coupe got T-37 badging in '70. I can't say about the 140 mph speedo, but think 120 is more likely. Even 120 seemed like a lot when speedos later stopped at 80 mph in some cars.

unruhjonny, you have to consider each model year independently when it comes to model designations. And it is often better to think in terms of the Model Series rather than the nameplate badging.

As stated in the earlier post, the GT-37 was an option package in '70. It was available for the 33 Model Series Tempest with either the Body Style 27 Coupe (post style) or Body Style 37 Hardtop Coupe. It was NOT available for the 35 Model Series Lemans, 37 Model Series Lemans Sport, or 42 Model Series GTO.

The 33 Model Series Hardtop Coupe came out later in the Model Year and was badged in '70 as the Tempest T-37. It is a bit uncertain if ALL '70 Tempest Hardtop Coupes got the additional T-37 badging, but I think the answer is yes. There is a '70 T-37 announcement folder which shows a Hardtop Coupe without T-37 decals. I have speculated that this may have been a stock photo of a post Coupe which was airbrushed to look like a Hardtop Coupe. In '68, Pontiac used a photo of a post Coupe GTO for the Woodward Ave. ad but airbrushed it to appear as a Hardtop Coupe, so it wouldn't be unprecedented.

The GT-37 was a sporty appearance dress-up package, it was not an actual model series. It required any available V8 as a mandatory additional option.

In '71, things changed. The 33 Model Series remained, but the Tempest badging was dropped altogether. From what I can gather, Pontiac considered the 33 Model Series the Lemans T-37, as noted on the Window Sticker of these cars. To my knowledge the badging only said T-37, no mention of Lemans, and the T-37 nameplate applied to all three Body Styles offered in the 33 Model Series line; Coupe, Hardtop Coupe, & 4 dr. Sedan.

The GT-37 continued to be offered as an option package, but now it was ONLY offered for the 33 Model Series in the Body Style 37 2 dr. Hardtop Coupe. At mid year, Pontiac changed the Rally Stripe option for the T-37 Coupe and Hardtop Coupe. The new stripe was also used with the GT-37 option.

The fender badging for the T-37 included a Pontiac nameplate with a T-37 nameplate below that. The Rally Stripe was an eyebrow style, available for 2 dr. styles only. The GT-37 simply exchanged the T-37 nameplate for a GT-37 nameplate and the eyebrow style stripe was included as part of the package.

The mid year stripe was sword style. For the T-37, I believe the nameplate badging was unchanged. But with the GT-37 option, the new sword style stripe incorporated the GT-37 callout within the stripe aft of the front wheel well, the T-37 nameplate was deleted.

The 33 Model Series was dropped altogether for '72. All that remained was the 35 Model Series (VIN plate designation "D") and was called the Lemans. The GT-37 option package was morphed into the GT option package and was available for the Lemans in the Body Style 37 2 dr. Hardtop Coupe and Body Style 67 2 dr. Sport Convertible (which was also VIN designation "D" but 38 Model Series on the Body Data Plate).

I believe your '71 literature should fully describe the T-37 and mention the GT-37. The literature may not be clear about the GT-37 being an option package, but the manner in which it was ordered makes that fact clear.

[gto4door]

John V,
Articulated very well. I'm cheering for you......you need 2 more post on this forum to change your status from Member to Senior Member.

[BR57]

....

[ambmech1]

John, I have been watching these 2 T-37 posts for quite some time. I haven't posted anything because I am learning more about these cars than I can contribute. My 70 was produced 4/70 although there was a repaint before I got it which would explain the t37 decals missing if it originally had them. I have the original dealer to customer invoice and nowhere does it mention t37. Tempest only. I do not see anywhere where the 350 badging would have went. The car is an original 350/350. I have had the car almost 6 years and I have learned more about it here in the last year or so. Thank you all.
Even though its not a GTO, I still enjoy the car. I don't see many tempests in this area only GTOs and Lemans.

[unruhjonny]

Hmmm...I could have sworn I've seen a 71/72 Tempest (wit hthe script badgeing) driving around... mabey I'm gonna have to pay more attention to this.

Thanks John!

[Jack Peters]

unruhjonnyu, if it is a '71/'72 and says "Tempest" on it it is incorrect. The word "Temptest" was never used after the '70 model year. T-37 was never used after the '71 model year.

All 350/400's received badging in the lower fender/rocker panel area. But there is always the possibility that the callouts were never put on some cars. Mine comes to mind immediately.. We have learned to never say never, especially when someone has photo proof.