[critter]

Doesn't Dude sell an SFI flexplate? I wonder how it would work in this application.

So you guys running that BTO, how are the shifts? Firm? Soft? What about racing? Do you ever and if so, on what tires?

[HWYSTR455]

I'm totally happy with the shifts, though a very light throttle, low speed upshifts feel a touch soft, which I believe is mainly the converter in my case.

As for lockup controls, I use the adjustable B&M unit, with an override switch.

[myckee]

I use a Scat SFI flexplate from SD. I had to open up the bolt holes a bit but other than that it works great. I use a PTC lockup 10" converter and it is fantastic.

Parts you should consider mandatory in the build are:
hardened stator support
hardened pump vane rings
extra clutch in the 4th pack (must machine housing .080 to make space for extra clutch)
one piece teflon shaft seals
GN size or larger servo
.500 or .570 and .400 boost valves
Shift kit (not hurst or b&m)
hardened sun shell (standard on 87 and up)
billet forward drum-I seriously doubt the stocker will hold for long in a heavy, torquey car
Raybestos Blue or Alto Red Eagle directs
Oversized Alto Red Eagle band
Rollerised low/rev housing to reduce parasitic loss and heat
deep trans pan + bottom feeding filter (I made my own deep pan out of two stockers and my own bottom feeding sump using copper pipe and a th200 filter)

Mods required:
Dual feeding the directs
Enlarging pump passages
.060 hole in direct drum


I think that covers most of the stuff you need.

[critter]

Thanks. That's pretty much what I was looking for, a check list of what I need to be sure I'm getting.

The first guy is out. BTO comes close. A couple of the builders on turbobuick.com are comparable in price to BTO. I guess I need to compare apples to apples and see who's offering the best deal.

[lust4speed]

My 200R4 also bolted right up to the stock flexplate without enlarging the holes.

[zbuickman]

As far as a converter I would recomend the Vigi 5disk lockup. the single disk units will NOT hold up to locked convertor racing. It looks like youve spent some time in the TB.com tranny forum. it a VERY informative area. The best parts are developed through the TR vendors. The only useable part from a Monte SS (Bowties flag ship) is the Higher Rpm Governor, well and the case. The rest is junk. if you want a 2004-R to last get a unit from someone that can build one to live behind a TR.

P.S. BTO will not warranty one of their trannys behind a Turbo Buick. Ask them. its been covered many times. and they get very defensive about it. Ever wonder why???


for pontiac content substitute 89 T T/A for Buick

[myckee]

I'm with zbuickman and think you should get a trans from someone who has spent a lot of time doing R&D on what will make this trans live behind a potent turbo buick.

[Steve C.]

Thanks.

My '70 factory flexplate does not have a dual pattern. We are using a TCI SFI flexplate and modifying it to fit the converter (mine is not powder coated). I have the gut urge not to use the factory flexplate ..... 600+ ft.lbs. torque from 4100 thru 5400 rpm.

Just got back from John's shop, the Bowtie crossmember fits perfect. The drive shaft will work, the length we had with the TH400 is ok. Just need to deal with the yoke situation.

[Cliff R]

"My biggest concern is "IF" I decide to run it on drag radials. Will it take the launch? If not, I'll stay off the track and move on to building a car for racing like I really should anyway."

It will be fine, right up to the moment it goes BOOM! We've been around these units for a long time, they are tough little transmissions, but just that, "little". Sooner or later they give up, just too many "sore" spots for long term reliability behind high torque engines.

We've built them here, with all the "goodies", and most live a pretty decent life. Strong running GN's still kill them. Most last a season or two, but they still give up someplace. The converters are as weak as the transmissions, I'd up for the multiple disk units if you plan on locking it up on a hard run.

Someone mentioned pumps, 6 or 10 vane. The pump rings were "soft" with early units, same as the sun shells and stator shafts. Early direct drums are hopeless, and there were a lot of poor welds as well. No advantage moving up to a 10 vane pump, they don't pump any more fluid, just "smooths" out the pulsations some, hardened pump rings are manditory for any build level.

If you are just going to use one of these units in a street car, that see's occassional dragstrip use, they are fine. For SERIOUS applications that go to the track frequently, you are looking at the wrong transmissions. I could build 3 or 4 TH400's for the cost of a decent torque converter for a 200-4R, FWIW.....Cliff

[critter]

As you know, Cliff, most of my use is street now. I would like to be able to run at our club race in the spring and one major Pontiac meet every year. I understand these aren't strong tranmsissions, never have been. I did think, with the advances in hard parts, that this transmission could be built to take my use and live for several years. Perhaps you're agreeing with that?

If not, I know you're a fan of the 4l60 in these applications. Could you help me understand why you feel those would be stronger? What weak points of the 200-4r are negated by the 4l60? What weak points in the 4l60 should be addressed for my use?

For those following along, Gear Vendors is out for me. I've already purchased one and it would have required me cutting the brace on the floor pans. I'm not cutting it up for an OD.

[Skip Fix]

Steve how does the crossmember clear the exhaust? Heard from others it was an issue. Mine (yet to be used) is pretty straight across without the humps the factory one has there.

[Steve C.]

Skip, I believe there will be no issues with my "expensive" coated exhaust system, one of the reasons I choose this "little" trans. But John will need to confirm.

I spoke with Cliff about this and dispite his warnings I decided to go ahead anyway with the 2004R. I bought a trans done out of Houston with all the "bells & whissles" installed for strentgh. He builds them for GN cars & 1000 hp vipers, so hopefully it will last awhile. Plus its going to be street only application, except for a track outing to again confirm I have a 10-second street car.

[critter]

After Cliff's post I was doing some looking around at the 700r4/4l60 transmissions because he and had discussed them before. I know he favors them. I then came across this company while doing research. Anyone know anything about them?

http://performabuiltautomatics.com/p...nsmissions.htm

[Cliff R]

Chris, I hate getting into debates about the potential of the 200's, compared to 4L60's. EVERYTHING inside the 4L60 is larger, and stronger. About the only similiarity between the two units is the oil pump, vane type with hardened rings. Which transmission did GM use, and stick with for nearly every HD application less than 3/4 ton trucks, for over 20 years? GM tweaked and tweaked them, they are pretty darn tough units, and don't require nearly the aftermarket parts that the 200 does, so they are less expensive to build.

Downside of the 4L60's is that they are longer, wider, and no BOP bolt pattern. Some consider the 3.06 first gear a bit steep, and the drop to 2nd too great. I've had a few in my own cars and my customers who we've built them for have never complained about it?

I think that both you and Steve will be fine, as you don't drive your cars they way I do. I have over 1200 documented runs on my car in the past couple of years alone. My engine has broken EVERYTHING behind it, at least once, so spending a bunch of money and time on an OD just isn't anywhere in my future!.....Cliff

[critter]

I understand not debating. I didn't want you to. This has turned into one of the more informative threads regarding these two possible OD transmissions for our second generation Trans Ams. I'm soliciting your, and all others, opinions regarding what you think is the strong points of both transmissions. I especially value your opinion based on the fact that you rebuild transmissions for people. I'd ask any other transmission builders to offer their opinions here as well. I'd much rather hear from the guys who have their hands in the guts of one than relying on second hand knowledge from other web sites.

Oh, and you know Steve and I both. I bet he breaks his before I break mine!

[Sammy B]

Hey Steve C, where are you getting your 200 4R from? I've been mostly looking at the Bowtie Overdrive level 3, but I'm still open to other options.

Thanks,

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

I could build 3 or 4 TH400's for the cost of a decent torque converter for a 200-4R, FWIW.....Cliff

Is that what continental charges for a 2004R converter?

PTC wll make a nitrous ready one for $ 450 U.S.
The only thing they don't recommend is racing it with the lockup engaged, it wouldn't be worth the tenth or two for the average guy anyway.

www.ptcrace.com

Here are two of the premier 2004R specialists in the world, and manufacturers of billet components for the 2004R.

http://www.ckperformance.com/
http://www.ptsxtreme.com/

[Sammy B]

Ok, I'm a big believer in the 'you get what you pay for' philosophy. With that in mind, why is a built Bowtie tranny so much cheaper than what everyone else is selling. When making comparisons, they all seem to have similar build specs, so what gives? It also seems that there are a lot more people running BTO trannies than any other re-builder. Is this because they're cheaper, or better or both?

[Goat-Racer]

The 200 in my Goat has been in service for the past 15 years. It now has all of the billet internals from Bruce at PTS, but the car went 11.50s for years with all of the basic upgrades and stock hard parts.
Things like the hardened stator support, proper pump clearances and internals, wide Alto band, and billet servo are all a must. The biggest thing I did to improve the trans was the deep pan and the botom feed 700-r4 filter.
I could launch the car on the STREET hard enough to slosh the fluid away from the stock filter and the line pressure would drop in HALF! It would happen midway through low gear and during 1-2 shift. I had gone through several intermediate bands because they were taking such a beating. The line pressure gauge was the savior on this deal.
The deep Art Carr pan and filter combo totally eliminated the pressure drop, and I have not hurt another band since.

I really love my 200.

[Steve C.]

Sammy B- Quite some time ago I looked into overdrive transmissions with ernest and like Critter looked into Bowtie, PTS, Art Carr, etc. But at that time I dropped the OD trans project and made the decision to keep my TH400 and change to 3.08 geas in the future. However within the last month I changed my mind and decided to go ahead and gamble with a 2004R transmission and keep my 3.73 gears.
John at the shop has a friend that races with him in the Texas True 10.5 heads-up series and he builds race transmissions. As mentioned he does them for GN cars and reportably 1000hp vipers, and he said he could build me one. We told him what I drove, gave him a copy of the dyno sheet, and told him to go. I didn't shop around, I'm in a time constrant.... a week later John picked it up. Not cheap... billet this, billet that... over $4000 for the package, including trans, 4000 stall lock-up converter, TV cable, and some other parts, plus sales tax (core charge not included).

Mike at Century Automotive & Transmission in Richmond, Texas / 281-633-8155