[TreySmith]

Which do you guys think I should do? I have to get a new block since mine is a 78 so it's not the best platform to start with. I plan on driving my car every day so reliability is a factor. What would be the best bang for my buck in power? I heard an LT1 is an easy swap because the mounts are standard 350 mounts. Looking for about 450 or so rwhp. I might sell the car kinda soon and I know LS1's double the value of anything they touch.

[ponjohn]

LT1 is a complete waste of time.

LS1 is the most bang for the buck. Either way ls1 or 462 you're going to spend some dough for 450 net hp.

[guccieng]

i don't think the ls1 will double the value. shoot, they're already dated (1997-2004). if you want an injected crate engine, get the ls3. i think the 'bang for the buck' is in the big inch carb motor.

[NBF823]

At 450hp the pontiac is gonna be the fastest street motor; most torque. My 78' XX block left little to be desired from a 400 block.

Whats the LS going for now? The LS was gonna cost me alot, I considered it, but stayed with pontiac for my firebird. I really liked what I saw in the LS series engine desighns, but it was gonna be a few grand just to get one before all the machine work and aftermarket parts. Consider that; other than an iron truck block, an newer V8 Camaro, V8 Firebird, GTO, or Vette had to be a donor, or it had to be new. The quotes where at 3k or so before work. For that I got a '70 400+.030 with Milodon 4-bolts, eagle rods, KB fordged pistons, and all ARP bolts, and balanced for about 2k or so + all I had alll the original pontiac stuff already in my car.

The LT1 woulda been a good choice for me to; I was interested in winding it out for road courses. They're good for high revs and cheaper parts. Didn't quite have all the virtues to make me want to put a chevy between the fenders of my 'bird.

I chose to stay pontiac. Up to you really. Let me know what you find out.

[JUDGNOT]

LSX engine compared to Pontiac Iron..

LSX= Cheaper, lighter, more fuel efficient, more reliable, longer living, much better design, more performance choices.

Pontiac= torque, under hood appeal, classic exhaust note.

L98 heads flow I believe 310 cfm out of the box and a set costs half of one out of the box aluminum Pontiac head that flows much less. Just one little example..

Flame away.

[guccieng]

you think the LSX is cheaper with all of the fuel injection electronics? or are you talking about adding the distributor and carb/intake?

[JOE DEYTON]

I have an LT powered 94 Z28 so I would definitely say no to that thing (although I can smoke my friends 75 Ta). Ls is a good motor for a smallblock and can smoke most old school musclecars that is if no aftermarket parts are used on the old stuff. The factory just put good heads on the LS motor thats why they run more than anything. 450 hp is not hard to achieve in any of these motors though nowadays.The EFI appeal is understandable being already factory equipped and having decent milage. Myself I still would keep it pontiac powered though just my opinion.Being a die hard pontiac engine guy, only the efi keeps me from putting one in the camaro lol.

[JUDGNOT]

Originally Posted by guccieng

you think the LSX is cheaper with all of the fuel injection electronics? or are you talking about adding the distributor and carb/intake?

Yes with everything "turn key" ready to go.

Here is an example of a 525 hp ls3 ready to put into a car.

To build a proper Pontiac, starting from scratch with whatever block/stroke you wanted, to make an engine equal to the LS3 I linked to would cost all of 12 grand and more once induction, spark, and accessories were accounted for. When I say proper I mean no cast crap inside and aluminum heads, just like the LS.

http://www.turnkeyenginesupply.com/E...8&key=packages

It's hard not to notice what they're doing with the LS these days. As much as I love a Pontiac engine, kind of hard not to seriously consider what else you can get for your money. Let's face it, building a proper Pontiac engine is down right expensive.

[JUDGNOT]

Ok so thinking about this a little more maybe you could do the Pontiac for a tad less money but then again maybe not. Either way it's very close and in the end the LS leaves you with so much more from a pure results stand point. Imagine an all aluminum all forged 6.5-7k redline monster prowling around in a constant state of perfect tune getting 20 mpg on low octane and weighing hundreds of pounds less.

If you're not a numbers matching kind of guy what the heck isn't to like?

Take it one step further and plop your a-body shell onto one of these and you've just brought that old hunker Pontiac into the modern world of performance.

http://www.streetrodgarage.com/abody.aspx

[TreySmith]

Ok thanks guys, I am just having a hard time finding a 400 or 455 block. I guess I could try the junkyard Sunday. Where do you guys buy your engines from? Do y'all just get lucky on craigslist?


I figure if I can get a good deal on an LSX I will do that. Also 525 hp from an LS motor is fairly easy, there are a ton of guys in the GTO and G8 world that just slap a magnacharger on and call it a day. They hold up great.

[amcmike]

Good luck with your Sunday hunt (I love the occasional junkyard trip). Usually I have one thing in mind when I head to the junkyard, but often I'm surprised at what other cool stuff I find.

Do avoid the LT1s. They only put them in Vettes (1992-1997)and F-bodies (1993-1998). While a lot of parts carry over from the previous generation, it has some specific parts that are getting harder to find and expensive. For example, lots of problems with the Optispark distributor (of which I was also a victim), and the water pump setup (specific because of the reverse rotation).

On the other hand, LSX (depending on application), can be easily found complete and with an overdrive trans relatively inexpensive. They are very responsive to camshaft and exhaust upgrades. Plus if you get the aluminum block ones (some trucks are cast iron), you'll looking at about 450lbs total engine weight. As for doubling the value of anything they touch, don't think so.

If you're planning to sell soon, best to stay all Pontiac. You'll have a lot more suitors.

[TreySmith]

Is this a good block?

76 400 w/rotating assy; part#481988,date 6/29/73, code X4

[guccieng]

i don't think you should only look at the max hp. the poncho will give more power under the curve and you won't have to spin to 7k to get it. the ls motors don't like low octane gas, either. i don't like putting 91 in mine, but that's the best in cali (besides race gas, of course). i do like the injection motors being 'easy' to start and go, but if one thing doesn't work, you may not go at all. at least with a carb you have a better chance of being able to limp home and have an easier fix, but that's the classic 'injection vs. carb debate' that's never going to end! i think if you find the right parts, you can have a built poncho for 8-9 grand, depending on what accessories you already have. just for comparison, my '09 vette with a ls3/6-speed stick is a blast to drive, but isn't faster (in the quarter mile, not top speed) or stronger than my camaro's 383 with 395hp (at the wheel) and fuel injection is not as responsive as a properly tuned ignition/double pumper with sticky tires and high stall converter, imho. granted, the gas mileage will suck when compared to the injected motor! there's just alot to think about here...

[amcmike]

I lean towards the "prefer to see a real Pontiac engine in a classic" side, but to be fair to LSX engines, I'd like to clear a few things up.

Originally Posted by guccieng

the ls motors don't like low octane gas, either. i don't like putting 91 in mine, but that's the best in cali (besides race gas, of course)...

They run all day on premium 91, and can run ok on even lower octane but with a slight loss in performance. Even with their high compression ratio, the aluminum block and heads, modern combustion chambers (mixture motion), fuel injection, coil-on-plug, and wide LSA make the engine very detontation tolerable on pump gas without sacrificing performance.

Originally Posted by guccieng

i do like the injection motors being 'easy' to start and go, but if one thing doesn't work, you may not go at all. at least with a carb you have a better chance of being able to limp home and have an easier fix, but that's the classic 'injection vs. carb debate' that's never going to end!...

Maybe an arguement for aftermarket (or really old OEM - maybe you meant to put the ' in front of the word classic?) systems, but late model electronics have several limp home modes built into their systems. If there's a malfunction, depending on the type, it will go into limp home mode and still allow the vehicle to be driven.

As example, even on a drive-by-wire, if the throttle can't be actuated, the car can be driven. The throttle is mechanically "parked" in a part throttle position, so that some airflow is present. Then using injection and ignition timing, mild acceleration is possible to get the vehicle to a service station.

Another example, is something that cannot be done with a carbed engine. On an LSX, if your cooling system fails, the engine may still run for a short time. There is a limp home mode that alternates cylinder firings, to limit engine heat and allow the car to get to a service station under it's own power.

The LSX engines have also proven extremely reliable even when built to put out much more power than they had from the factory. One reason they continue to be a popular swap these days.

Originally Posted by guccieng

i think if you find the right parts, you can have a built poncho for 8-9 grand, depending on what accessories you already have....

And for the same money, you could find a used LSX engine with trans, modify it to the same power levels, and swap it in. The difference being you now have the overdrive, and EFI.

Originally Posted by guccieng

just for comparison, my '09 vette with a ls3/6-speed stick is a blast to drive, but isn't faster (in the quarter mile, not top speed) or stronger than my camaro's 383 with 395hp (at the wheel) and fuel injection is not as responsive as a properly tuned ignition/double pumper with sticky tires and high stall converter, imho.
...

Keep in mind, the vette is drive-by wire. Just because you put your foot to the floor does not mean the throttle follows the same. How the engine responds depends on how it's calibrated. An OEM doesn't want a driver to blow the tires loose at 30mph and cause an accident. They'll bring the power on in a way that the car can handle traction-wise. They also may pull back power due to torque limitations on other drivetrain parts, such as the transmission. And removing peak jumps in torque gives the driver a linear acceleration feel. Look at some of the newer turbo gas engines, and you'll typically see a perfectly flat curve from across a wide range. That's not soley based on the combination of parts, but the calibration.

Originally Posted by guccieng

granted, the gas mileage will suck when compared to the injected motor! there's just alot to think about here...

On these two aspects I agree 100%.

[JMackPontiac]

Put a 'REAL PONTIAC' engine in it! You can build a 550 HP and 575/600 TQ that will get you the RWHP that you want and it won't cost $8-9 K if you shop around for a 'good' block, crank, rods, pistons, etc. The Pontiac 462 will KILL the LS1 or LSX for what you are wanting to do, if you make it hook of course.

Nothing against the LS1 or LSX engines, they just belong in a Chevy, not a Pontiac...........period. That is like inbreeding, not cool. If you must go with a 'corporate' engine, get rid of the Pontiac and buy you a Chevy.

JMHO and yes, I am biased...........I am a PONTIAC PURIST!

Good luck with your project/build.

JMack

[TreySmith]

Originally Posted by JMackPontiac

Put a 'REAL PONTIAC' engine in it! You can build a 550 HP and 575/600 TQ that will get you the RWHP that you want and it won't cost $8-9 K if you shop around for a 'good' block, crank, rods, pistons, etc. The Pontiac 462 will KILL the LS1 or LSX for what you are wanting to do, if you make it hook of course.

Nothing against the LS1 or LSX engines, they just belong in a Chevy, not a Pontiac...........period. That is like inbreeding, not cool. If you must go with a 'corporate' engine, get rid of the Pontiac and buy you a Chevy.

JMHO and yes, I am biased...........I am a PONTIAC PURIST!

Good luck with your project/build.

JMack

Is there any guides that show exactly what parts are used? Can I use my 6x heads and what needs to be done to them? Just take them to a machine shop and ask for ____?

I keep forgetting the way Pontiac Engines work, 450-500rwtq should be plenty for a street car to get to highschool and back and it shouldn't cost an arm and a leg right? I mean that's only like 150rwtq over stock.

[TreySmith]

Hey guys how much power would I pick up having the heads done and how much roughly would it cost?

[guccieng]

only 150rwtq? some cars don't even make that.

[65gto69]

Originally Posted by TreySmith

Is there any guides that show exactly what parts are used? Can I use my 6x heads and what needs to be done to them? Just take them to a machine shop and ask for ____?

I keep forgetting the way Pontiac Engines work, 450-500rwtq should be plenty for a street car to get to highschool and back and it shouldn't cost an arm and a leg right? I mean that's only like 150rwtq over stock.

Purchase this book, (How To Build Max Performance Pontiac V-8's, by Jim Hand) and it will tell you all you need to know about building a performance Pontiac motor you are looking for. Also in the back of the book are proven engine builds with specs from Pontiac engine builders, who some frequent this site.

http://www.amazon.com/How-Build-Perf.../dp/1884089674

It is a very good book that all Pontiac enthusiast should have. It shows what parts to use and how to modify and tune, etc.

Mark

[gearbanger]

I think the LS stuff is cool and if you are wanting wow factor then that is one thing, but there is no way in the world that you will get bang for the buck out of that. I built a KRE headed, hyd roller 461 that makes over 550 hp for 6k starting with nothing. It also has over 600 ft lbs of torque. Try to get that with a 6.2. I also have driven it thousands of miles and it run cool in traffic and gets 18 mpg with a 5 speed.

You need to look at b-mans thread about putting an LS1 in a 64 Tempest. You are in for a heck of a project to get that in there and all hooked up. I would say on top of that 12k for the motor, your going to need another 1k for power steering and AC, then you will need different clutch and hydraulic throwout because none of you stock stuff will work. Thats another 1k, or you will need an automatic which will need work to handle the power. Thats also probably 1k. Custom driveshaft, 2-4 hundred. All the mounts and headers, exhaust work etc.

I would say it would be hard to get it done for less that 15k if you did it all yourself and ended up with 450 rwhp and less torque that the 461/462.