[Tom Vaught]

TEST

Originally Posted by RAIV-Z

Hey Tom, great info. As always the devil is in the details.
1) OIL DRAIN NEEDS TO BE ABOVE THE OIL LEVEL AT ALL TIMES.

• Right. Tough part is to estimate how high the oil level at the front of the pan will be when you deploy the chutes and start braking.

X When you deploy the Chutes and are braking you are: OFF THE GAS, the By-Pass valves are open, the Throttle is closed. The Turbo is in a low load condition on the Compressor Wheel and the Ball Bearing CHRAs can survive under that mode for a bit of time even if the oil is covering the drain tubes. No need to estimate oil level then.

Typical oil drains are installed in Pontiac engine vehicles:
a) 1.0" down from the oil pan rail

• Should I assume this measurement is with a stock style pan?

b) 2.0" inches forward of the first oil pan bolt on the pan. (The timing cover bolts do not count).

• Is this also assuming a stock style pan? The Moroso 2 Piece pan will have the oil level ~5.7 inches below the oil pan rail.

X You have windage in the oil pan, even with a windage tray. The higher up the oil drain is
the more it is out of the crank windage blast. Sometimes a drain that high is tough to do so people weld a "open at the top/open at the bottom "baffle" to block some of the windage effect of the crankshaft. If the hole is a 7/8" drain hole then the "baffle needs to be at least a 1.25" square piece of flat stock shielding the 7/8" hole so windage does not block the air bubbles/oil returning to the pan. Two Turbos, two baffles, and two drains into the pan.

2) The Oil Drain Angle should not be less than 30 degrees downward at all times. Use a carpenter’s level and a protractor. If the angle is too "FLAT" you need a scavenge pump. Hopefully one that will not fail. No valleys in the oil line at all as "a valley" will trap oil and then the Turbo cannot "breathe" and will push oil past the seals on the turbo shaft.

• Got it, mocking up the lines this week.

3) Drain length cannon exceed 18 inches in a downward horizontal direction unless steel line is used with a smooth inner surface. No Corrugated tube crap.

• I believe we’re ok on the overall length, is there a recommended minimum downward angle?

X Like I said above, if the oil pan flange is assumed horizontal and at "0" degrees then the angle from the turbo to the drain inlet needs to be at a greater angle than 30 degrees.

4) Drain lines should be 150% larger than the drain hole size coming out of the Turbocharger.

• Planning on using ¾ lines on each turbo.
X Fine 3/4" id Teflon lines (aeroquip) of steel hard lines work well with a small flex bellows.

5) Minimum of -4 feed line with no restrictors or regulation devices that can stick and restrict oil to the turbos. A .120" oil restriction is allowed right at each turbo inlet fitting to help with high pressure oiling systems.

• Sent a note to Turbonetics asking about oil pressure recommendations/limits for their “ceramic ball bearing” turbos. No response. Also unable to find any related information on their site either.

X The feed line/pressure info above was given to me by Bob Keller who owned Turbonetics for 40+ years. TV

Thanks
Ed

[RAIV-Z]

Tom,

What is considered "high pressure oiling systems"? The titan oil pump is currently set for 95psi.

Thanks,
Ed

[Tiger Paw]

I would think this level of performance would demand a dry sump system.

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by Tiger Paw

I would think this level of performance would demand a dry sump system.

Why?

[Elarson]

It will get difficult to keep a wet sump pickup covered with oil at both ends of the tracks if you run in the 6's (roughly speaking).

If your bearings show distress, don't be shy about raising your oil pressure. Rodney and Travis run something in the 125-140 psi neighborhood. Especially watch your rod bearings. If they run too dry and spin bearings, it will tear rods loose.

Eric

[Jack Gifford]

Originally Posted by Elarson

... It will get difficult to keep a wet sump pickup covered with oil at both ends of the tracks...

Listen to the man!

[Tom Vaught]

Dry Sumps have many advantages over a "WET" Oil system.

Very Fast Street Car with today's Dry Sumps can live on the street for a long time.
Porsche Cayenne has one stock, Ford GT Has one stock, (did not say Mustang).

Marty ran one in 1996 (FOR A REASON).

You really have to "cover all of the bases", not just slap some turbos on a engine and call it good if you are running quick times in drag racing. Road Race cars, (except the street type stuff or Hobby stuff) typically run a dry sump for better oil control and also for SAFETY.

The basic systems should be covered before the other parts are added or at least designed into the basic package FIRST. Not as a afterthought when the stuff you used does not work. Then you are just doing "DO-OVERS"

Bob and Frank did a killer Dry Sump system for a Pontiac (VERY PROFESSIONAL DEAL) THEY MAYBE SOLD A HANDFUL OF THE SYSTEMS TOTAL). Sad.

Tom V.

[Elarson]

I love the simplicity of a wet sump. Grocery Getter was fine with one into mid-7's and we tried it on funny car but it let us down.

Eric

[Tom Vaught]

The Parts Ed is putting on his car reflect a 6 second capability.
Food for thought.

Tom V.

[Dragncar]

Leech told me he had to go dry sump at the RPMs he wanted to run. Either that or a lot of time. effort and risk making a pan with serious baffles.
Shifted @8,800 and crossed the line 9K+ I believe. Out of E heads with stock valve location and stock E guides. Safe to say they were maxed out.
I have L jacks old E heads done my Gabby. Flow 408cfm. Mikes went 414 (and Marcella with tell you cfm is only 48% of the answer, I believe him)
Gabby told me the heads will pull to 7500 with a 535 and 7800 with a 505.
Almost the same cfm and Mikes heads had 1000RPM more "pull" to them with a 565 no less.
Tells you its all about the combo. That and 18-1 and a BOP with a ton of work done to it.
Anyway, might want to consider dry sump.

[Tiger Paw]

Build yourself the whizziest oil pan and baffles you can dream up. Put it in your hands full of water then slosh it as hard as hope your car will launch. You might want to wear waders cause your gonna get real wet. now imagine all that sloshing oil gets into a spinning crank and gets thrashed and whipped into a froth. Scrapers help but they are an indirect route to the pickup.

I ran tricked out wet sumps with accusump backup, but they were marginal at best. Put a dry sump in it and forgot about it. Dude you are building one of the coolest badboy Pontiacs out there. You'll be launching and initial accel at 3G's Don't go cheap here. Too risky for your engine, your car and your safety!

Good luck with your car, It looks amazing!

[John Langer]

If you "have" to go dry sump, it's because you have other issues inside of the oil pan...

[Tiger Paw]

There you go have Langer build you an oil pan!

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Leech told me he had to go dry sump at the RPMs he wanted to run. Either that or a lot of time. effort and risk making a pan with serious baffles.
Shifted @8,800 and crossed the line 9K+ I believe. Out of E heads with stock valve location and stock E guides. Safe to say they were maxed out.
I have L jacks old E heads done my Gabby. Flow 408cfm. Mikes went 414 (and Marcella with tell you cfm is only 48% of the answer, I believe him)
Gabby told me the heads will pull to 7500 with a 535 and 7800 with a 505.
Almost the same cfm and Mikes heads had 1000RPM more "pull" to them with a 565 no less.
Tells you its all about the combo. That and 18-1 and a BOP with a ton of work done to it.
Anyway, might want to consider dry sump.

Maybe you should talk to John Marcella about why those 414 cfm heads pulled 1000 more rpm than someone else's 408 cfm heads will on a 566.

Stan

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by John Langer

If you "have" to go dry sump, it's because you have other issues inside of the oil pan...

Can't disagree on that point, just easier for a lot of people to remove a given amount of oil and put it in a container designed to remove the air and then pump it back into the engine vs having the knowledge to design a pan that will minimize air mixing with the oil, oil running away from the oil pick-up on acceleration and braking, and oil over-temp issues on a given amount of oil vs pumping oil thru a oil cooler (air or water cooled) to a larger volume remote reservoir.
Dry Sumps take more hp typically from the engine but have other benefits as mentioned above.

Not everyone is a John Langer, especially in the Pontiac World.

Tom V.

[John Langer]

It is not just the oil pan. It is also how you drain the oil back, bulkhead mods, crank mods, bearing mods etc...

[Tiger Paw]

P/S, F1,IRL and Comp run dry sumps. Even Big Chief! They all have the mods done to every component. By the time you add external drain backs you've paid for some plumbing for your drysump. You can size the pressure stage to your needs. The scavenge sections do not make any appreciable psi so they add negligible loss. How much more power do they take? Not much, you can prime your engine with 1/2 hp electric drill motor.

[Tom Vaught]

Good Info from everyone. Thanks

Tom V.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Tiger Paw

P/S, F1,IRL and Comp run dry sumps. Even Big Chief! They all have the mods done to every component. By the time you add external drain backs you've paid for some plumbing for your drysump. You can size the pressure stage to your needs. The scavenge sections do not make any appreciable psi so they add negligible loss. How much more power do they take? Not much, you can prime your engine with 1/2 hp electric drill motor.

My question for John would be .Does the class he runs legally let him run a dry sump?

Stan

[John Langer]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

My question for John would be .Does the class he runs legally let him run a dry sump?

Stan

Yes 5% of the engines cid in pounds. It isn't worth the weight for the added hp. Additionally it isn't worth the additional 50+'pounds on the nose.