[tininjun68]

I've got the opportunity to buy the '68 Firebird Bracket Car that I drove in Pro ET. Only thing is it's got a stroker sbc in it. I was going 10.50's as it was. I haven't built a race motor before so question is: how much to build a Pontiac bracket motor that will make this 2800lb car stay in the 10.50's? It's got a glide and I believe 4.88's. Car is consistent but I'd really like to campaign it-Pontiac Powered. Any similar combos to compare to or spec motor suggestions are welcome, thanks.

[charlie66]

Probably 10+ grand..

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by charlie66

Probably 10+ grand..

No,No,No........... in a car that weight he could do it with a number of combos. Plain jane home ported D ports could get it done. Easy. You could do it on pump gas.
Its 2800lbs man. My buddy runs mid 10s with 62s, 4" stroke crank, 750, Warrior in a second gen Formula.
With a little effort it could be done with factory block,crank, iron heads and good rods and pistons.
There were a few short blocks just sold here that were more than enough to get it done.
I am at 10.90s, pump gas, iron heads, plain TRW 455 with cheap H beams in a all steel, all glass 69 GTO. Give me 2800lbs and I bet I could cover that.
Might have to change gears, big deal. Its a race car.

[Dragncar]

Just pull that POS small block out of it, disgraceful and put the engine back in it was always supposed to have. I think its a joke to put a Fing chevy, big block or small block when you can run the intended ET with a Pontiac. I laugh at every single one of them I see.
Sure, you can build sbc combos, high effort that are hard for Pontiacs to beat. Class racing ect. But tens ?
I plan on knocking on the 9 second door with a pump gas PMD block in a car a lot heavier than this one.
He can use a lot of used parts and with a little help from around here reach his goal with a very reliable engine. Give me 10 grand and can do it with cash to spare. A complete engine with aluminum heads just sold for around 4K. It sold fast, steal but it can be done. Darby sold his race block with pistons for under 2K, another sold a race prepped block too recently.
A lot of us have the parts and ability to get it done with parts laying in our garages. I could. Dont even use the stuff.
Get the chevy out.

[ponyakr]

You can buy the stock block, short block for around $5k, with a forged crank, and roller cam.

Can save close to $1000, by going with a flat tappet cam.

http://lenwilliamsautomachine.com/455_Short_Block.html

http://www.sandovalperformance.com/engines

https://butlerperformance.com/i-2445...tegory:1234783

The Spotts site shows an aftermarket 505 short block, for $6190. Don't know if that price is current or not. Forged crank will probably add $400.

http://www.spottsperformance.com/IA2%20engine%20block2

Most say that it costs at least $1000 to do a set of unported iron heads. Alum heads are what, at least $2500, or more.

http://www.sdperformance.com/viewPro...?productID=583

http://www.krepower.com/Pontiac%20Al...er%20Heads.htm

https://butlerperformance.com/i-3024...tegory:1287735

http://www.krepower.com/Pontiac%20Al...er%20Heads.htm

In order to build from scratch & and buy all new parts, I'd say it would be hard to build a 10.50 engine for less than $8k. But, if you have ready to run heads, intake, carb, and any other necessary parts, it would obviously reduce the cost.

[ponyakr]

The Pontiac Stockers are running mid 10's, with 400 engine, iron D-ports, iron intake, 750 Q-jet, & flat tappet .425 lift cam, at over 3400lbs.

And that's footbrakin, with 9" slicks.

Some of the 400 GT Super Stock Cars are running in the 9's, with slightly ported iron heads, a 750 Q-jet, roller cam, brake, & big tires.

So, with more cubes, ported iron or alum heads, roller cam, Northwind or Victor intake, Dominator carb, and big tires, 10.50's should be easy in a 2800lb car.

I've read here that unported KRE High Ports are about the best value out there, for a build in this hp range. Not trying to start a "which head is best" argument.

I'd be interested in reading about a 10.50 engine build, that was less than $10k, in which the builder/buyer had to buy every engine part, including block, heads, cam, intake, carb, etc.

[Dragncar]

If you have a decent of iron Pontiac heads for 1800$ SD can CNC port them to 270cfm, solid roller, very nice.
But you can get close with porting them yourself al la Jim Hand. I know he can get to 10.80 with like heads and a RAIV cam in a 400. Same friend was 11 flat with that in the Formula.
There was a set of 16s that SD CNC ported to 270 that sold for 600$ here, bare.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

No,No,No........... in a car that weight he could do it with a number of combos. Plain jane home ported D ports could get it done. Easy. You could do it on pump gas.
Its 2800lbs man. My buddy runs mid 10s with 62s, 4" stroke crank, 750, Warrior in a second gen Formula.
With a little effort it could be done with factory block,crank, iron heads and good rods and pistons.
There were a few short blocks just sold here that were more than enough to get it done.
I am at 10.90s, pump gas, iron heads, plain TRW 455 with cheap H beams in a all steel, all glass 69 GTO. Give me 2800lbs and I bet I could cover that.
Might have to change gears, big deal. Its a race car.

Ok , so what will it cost then?

[charlie66]

Cost me 12k + to make 660hp . My car ran 10.20 first time out 3380 race weight ..

10K Easy to build it right. Why do it on the cheap? Make it last ..

Ive been spinning mine to 7200 for 7 years on the same bearings..

Build it once...

[ponjohn]

You need 480 hp at that weight.

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by ponjohn

You need 480 hp at that weight.

KRE claims 500hp with an out of the box set of their D-ports, on a 463, with HFT cam.

http://www.krepower.com/Pontiac%20Al...er%20Heads.htm

They show 632hp on a 467, with box stock High Ports, pump gas, and a HR cam.

http://www.krepower.com/Pontiac%20Al...er%20Heads.htm

I'm sure Paul Carter & Cliff Ruggles can both tell us real close to what it will take to make 500hp.

I've mentioned here before the possibility of building an iron head, aftermatket block, big cube engine. Most just laughed & dismissed it as a ridiculous idea. Shouldn't be any problem at all to make 480+hp, & near 600ft lbs of torque, with a HFT cam & correctly built Q-jet. Scott Burton has dipped into the 9's with his short stroke, aftermarket block, RAIV head Stocker. With a long stroke engine, you won't need high rpm to reach your goal.

A member here made 755hp @ 5900 rpm, with a 4.5 stroke stock block build, with unported High Ports, and and a solid roller.

[ponjohn]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

KRE claims 500hp with an out of the box set of their D-ports, on a 463, with HFT cam.

http://www.krepower.com/Pontiac%20Al...er%20Heads.htm

They show 632hp on a 467, with box stock High Ports, pump gas, and a HR cam.

http://www.krepower.com/Pontiac%20Al...er%20Heads.htm

I'm sure Paul Carter & Cliff Ruggles can both tell us real close to what it will take to make 500hp.

I've mentioned here before the possibility of building an iron head, aftermatket block, big cube engine. Most just laughed & dismissed it as a ridiculous idea. Shouldn't be any problem at all to make 480+hp, & near 600ft lbs of torque, with a HFT cam & correctly built Q-jet. Scott Burton has dipped into the 9's with his short stroke, aftermarket block, RAIV head Stocker. With a long stroke engine, you won't need high rpm to reach your goal.

A member here made 755hp @ 5900 rpm, with a 4.5 stroke stock block build, with unported High Ports, and and a solid roller.

Plenty of ways to make 500hp, don't need a bunch of links to validate.

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by ponjohn

Plenty of ways to make 500hp, don't need a bunch of links to validate.

Not trying to offend anyone, or insult anyone's intelligence. But, not EVERYBODY here is a Pontiac engine building expert.

"...Any similar combos to compare to or spec motor suggestions are welcome, thanks..."

A FEW here actually say they appreciate links that might be related to their topic. But, for all those who don't like my links & references, once again I apologize. No offense meant to anyone.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by charlie66

Cost me 12k + to make 660hp . My car ran 10.20 first time out 3380 race weight ..

10K Easy to build it right. Why do it on the cheap? Make it last ..

Ive been spinning mine to 7200 for 7 years on the same bearings..

Build it once...

I built my 455 for 5500$ back in the 80s. Went to roller cam later so I spent another 1000$ or so.
What makes you think just by paying more than you should that doing it for less, or "on the cheap" as you put it, that your engine will not be reliable and run well for a long time.
You can make 470HP with a 400, SRP Fts, decent steel rods, HFT and a unported iron intake and Q Jet. That is with the SD CNC ported D ports.
Solid roller, some 6.8 H beams and good FTs, Tomahawk nice DP carb and he is 530+ HP with a iron headed 400 on pump gas.
4" stroke engine, his best bet and 600HP is no big deal.
One of the most important, and free things to do in a engine like this is make sure your main bearings have the oil slot, or hole drilled in the right place and do the P Dude trick with the thrust bearing. That is free modification anyone can do with a vise, drill and files.
No need to overpay for things in a engine that is done by 6000RPMs.
BTW, there is no better intake for the money than the Tomahawk, period. They are cheap and work very well. A SD ported HSD for 150 bucks or so.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

I built my 455 for 5500$ back in the 80s. Went to roller cam so I spent another 1000$ or so.
What makes you think just by paying more than you should that doing it for less, or "on the cheap" as you put it, that your engine will not be reliable and run well for a long time.
You can make 470HP with a 400, SRP Fts, decent steel rods, HFT and a unported iron intake and Q Jet. That is the the SD CNC ported D ports.
Solid roller, some 6.8 H beams and good FTs, Tomahawk nice DP carb and he is 530+ HP with a iron headed 400 on pump gas.
4" stroke engine, his best bet and 600HP is no big deal.
One of the most important, and free things to do in a engine like this is make sure your main bearings have the oil slot, or hole drilled in the right place and do the P Dude trick with the thrust bearing. That is free modification anyone can do with a vise, drill and files.
No need to overpay for things in a engine that is done by 6000RPMs.

Its not the 80"s anymore.... So what it going to cost him ??

[Richie Hoffman]

I went 1030 at3000 lbs 68 bird in early 90s 455 trwpistons 73 SD rods unported RAIV heads 260 [email protected] custom hyd flat tappet Torker 1
1050 carb same combo ported heads went9.99@132 ported dports would get et he wants Jamie Horton has dports with solid flat tappet cam weighs 3400 or 3500 in his tempest
Goes low 10s

[taff2]

I ran 9.60's @137mph off the footbrake in a 2700lb car with this combo, 406 cu in, factory 400 block bored to 4.155", factory 350 crank -3.75", home ported iron '16' heads, light 400 SBC pistons on 7.00" ali rods, solid flat tappet cam 250 [email protected]"/.575" lift, 2 " headers, Torker 1 intake with an 800 double pumper on a 2" spacer,compression was 13-1, Th400 trans and 8" TCI converter,and 4.10 rear gears. Around 575 hp by Wallace calcs. Cost me around $4000 to build the combo about 10 years ago.

[firechickenman]

A pretty basic pump gas 455 with some decent heads should get the job done fairly easily at that weight. Some ported iron heads or out of the box E heads on a stock block/crank 455 should get the job done with a good SFT cam. Is that 2800 lbs with or without you in it? Also figure on adding some weight with a proper (Pontiac) engine in it especially if using iron heads. Probably need to change the converter and definitely the 4.88's too unless it has a really tall tire.

Mine was 3350 this past year and is really nothing special. A small roller cam and some decent flowing E heads on a stock block/crank 455.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by charlie66

Its not the 80"s anymore.... So what it going to cost him ??

Right now on PY for sale, ported 12s with Ferra valves 500$, 4.155 Ross stroker pistons with pins locks new 400$, Roller cam 150$ lifters 225$, a 400 with E heads sold for 3750$ and a 461 with KRE D ports sold for 4000$ complete.
You can find deals. Some people think Pontiac blocks and heads are scrap metal. My brother was given a 71 GTO engine, I bought a 455 with 6X8s. new RPM, Lunati .540lift cam and lifters, roller chain for 350$ and a 67 400 that had a P4B, 48s with hardened seats, bronze guides, good valves, TRW FTs for 50$.
Patience and a little luck.
Me, I pay for port work, machine work and parts. Everything else I do myself.

[tininjun68]

Thanks for all the info so far! Much appreciated.

Car is 2800lbs with no driver. 3000lbs with me driving. Can't remember tire height at moment but they're about 29" and 10.5" or wider. Agreed on the 88's and figured gears would need to be swapped for about 4.10's. I haven't looked at NHRA rules for Super Street (10.90 Index) but it's an idea to be able to run D1 events with it as well as Pro ET/Gamblers.