[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Old Man Taylor

Yep, you're right. Old age sucks.

"Don't Give them the Satisfaction, Kick them in the XXXXs and KMF (Keep Moving Forward)."

Tom V.

[geeteeohguy]

This is way, way better than The Curse of Oak Island or any of those other mystery shows. To me, this is up there with The Lost Dutchman Mine....at least if you're a Pontiac guy. Absolutely fascinating stuff. Thanks for the posts, guys, and looking forward to more.
Jeff

[Tenney]

My understanding directly from Jim, who was there ...

is that the Car and Driver test was the only road test that either the Red Car or the Blue Car participated in.

The exterior shots used in Popular Hot Rodding 03/64, Speed & Custom 04/64 and CARS 03/64 are press photos provided by Pontiac via McManus, John and Adams. A number of these shots are repeated among the various articles, btw.

The Blue Car didn't have a 421. If it did, Jim wouldn't have loaned it to Car and Driver, unchaperoned. For the same reason he flat-towed the Red Car back to Detroit instead of taking it to a local dealer for repair.

Upon return to Detroit, the same fellows who'd installed the initial 421 in the Red Car in engineering, swapped-in a replacement 421 at Royal after hours. It was then given to Jim for use as his company car.

The Blue Car went to the crusher. It'd be awesome if it was still secretly hidden away somewhere for some cool reason - but will go w/Jim's take on its whereabouts until it turns up.

The Blue Car was a pilot car that was largely hand-assembled and used to sell the GTO program internally at Pontiac. It was screwed-together properly, everything fit just right and it was perfect for those press photos, and to make a quality impression on the Car and Driver team on their drive to and around Florida.

And the Red Car, built bespoke for the task, put up the numbers in the Car and Driver test that put both Car and Driver magazine and the GTO on the map, and effectively kicked-off the muscle car era ...

“When the Car and Driver story broke in March of 1964. Everything changed. Pontiac had created, and Car and Driver had discovered, the American Musclecar.” –

Jim Wangers – “Glory Days” – Page 109


"The car didn't really get any serious exposure until after the Car and Driver story, " Wangers recalled.

Jim Wangers – “Pontiac GTO - The Great One” - Page 51


“After the magazine hit the stands in late January 1964, GTO sales began to skyrocket. Editor David E. Davis still believes the article guaranteed the success of both the GTO and Car and Driver.”

Pontiac Historian, Paul Zazarine – “GTO, 1964-1967” – Page 46


“The car became the fastest machine on Detroit’s Woodward Avenue, and Wangers derived great joy in letting other street racers know there was a new kid on the block.”

Royal Pontiac tuner, Milt Schornack - “Milt Schornack and the Royal Bobcat GTO’s” – Page 37-38


“When that car came in for service, Charlie Brumfield or Bud Conrad would keep the hood closed on it. Other times they would throw a blanket over the engine if they had to keep the hood opened. I knew there was something special under there, but nobody was saying much.”

Royal Pontiac tuner, Milt Schornack - “Milt Schornack and the Royal Bobcat GTO’s” – Page 38


“I’m here to admit, more than three decades after the fact, that yes, I did install a 421 H.O. Tri-Power engine in the red Royal Bobcat Car and Driver test car.”

Jim Wangers – “Pontiac GTO - The Great One” - Page 107


Hot Rod magazine named the Car and Driver GTO #3 “Most Influential Hot Rod of all time” …

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-...p_100_hot_rods


9:57 ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uX5V...ature=youtu.be

[aceaceca]

Post coupe, 64 GTO, close ratio, 3:90 axle, Crane H302 cam, Doug's 4 tube headers, M&H 27" tall slicks, fuel cool can out of the vac reservoir. Back in 65 and 66 ran low to mid 13's. I remember 13.26 on one occasion. This at Eastex and Dickerson I guess it was in Texas. Sold the car in 1975 in San Francisco. At the time it had a Ram Air III engine with a two barrel on it and a muncie rock crusher box. Gold with black interior, corvette wheel, no power. Notched frame for exhaust clearance. Series of cowl circular vent holes cut in the firewall. Sold it for $480. Never seen it again. May be out there though. Down in Mexico. Have vin and all the documents.

[War eagle]

Originally Posted by geeteeohguy

This is way, way better than The Curse of Oak Island or any of those other mystery shows. To me, this is up there with The Lost Dutchman Mine....at least if you're a Pontiac guy. Absolutely fascinating stuff. Thanks for the posts, guys, and looking forward to more.
Jeff

Jeff the only question here is if YOU believe Delorean would risk his career and would order Pontiac Engineering to install a 421 into the new Tempest body as Wangers story goes. If the 421 had been discovered the fallout would have been devastating, both for Delorean as well as Pontiac and General Motors.

Fortunately the Wangers story was untrue. Later in his book, Wangers clears both Delorean and Pontiac Engineering of any involvement by his admission that he installed the HO421.

(I saw a guy drop the treasure into one of the bore holes on the last Oak Island episode)

[War eagle]

Originally Posted by John V.

The car in the pic with the "W" scrawled on the firewall is the Code W Nocturne Blue car.

If I'm not mistaken, Wangers eventually copped to the 421 having been installed in the Red Car.

But the story goes that the Blue Car did not get the 421 and did not have the 3.90 rear axle. Both claims that I find shaky.

I may have underestimated J.W.s role in both of these cars.

I still personally consider the story of the Blue Car in regard to the Car & Driver article to be the more interesting of the two cars. No doubt the Red Car went on to have a glorious post test history and Tenney should be rightfully proud to own it today.

But the Car & Driver staff spent many more days and put on many more miles with the Blue Car including the road trip that John Jerome took with his then wife and young kids for a Christmas holiday in Florida, driving the Blue Car from NYC to Daytona.

The C&D staff gushed over the Blue Car during the time they got to spend with it in NYC.

And it was the Blue Car with manual steering and the Michigan plate HJ-4471 that seemed to repeatedly be the subject of other test reports during the model year, including I'm reasonably certain, the other article about the '64 that appears in the same issue of C&D where J.W. is actually named. I've only reviewed a few of these articles, far fewer than the 20 some mags that W.E. mentions.

But I'm not sure the Red Car equipped with PS (which the C&D report says was preferred by the writer, most likely Davis, Jr.) was the subject of any other test report articles.

And whether it was or not, the C&D article goosed sales of the GTO and I believe it was the Blue Car that had the most to do with why C&D wrote so favorably about the GTO.

If J.W. knew what really became of the Blue Car, it will be a shame if that story never comes to light. And also a shame that if the car had a real VIN, that PHS has not uncovered the Manifest for it. J.W. claimed it was a no VIN pre-production build but I remain unconvinced of that claim.

If the pic is proof of anything, it seems to me, it is proof the Blue Car had a 421 transplanted into it.

Such a shame that we know so little about this particular '64 GTO.

John. I very much agree that at least the car in the pic with the W has the 421, but are we sure we are looking at the blue car? I have asked your opinion before on this. Those pics supplied could be of several shoots. Maybe the W was the "tag Wangers" instead of Nocturn blue. I see the red car has the California plate 015, with vac. throttle. That tag shows up in numerous articles and hung on converts (2 different ones) and on a couple of coupe stories. 2 magazines dated 3/64 show the coupe with out the W but has the sail panel "Bobcat" emblem, HJ-4471 plate, and one with mechanical linkage. Confusing to say the least. (Could be we are seeing the addition of the Bobcat and linkage before and after on the same car) Maybe I should bundle up these mags and head them your way on loan. Jim`s collection would be better and larger if he would consent. This would save you at least 200.00 to 400.00 buying them individually on ebay for the research. (I would love to know how the red car got to California and back for the articles....driven or shipped. If the red and blue were driven to Florida, maybe the red was driven to Calif. Low gears and highway are no fun and hard on engines)

I just discovered another article by Alex Walordy where he compares the Mustang to another GTO this time a hardtop with the vinyl top and license plate ZP-1516. (Science and Mechanics)

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by War eagle

I just discovered another article by Alex Walordy where he compares the Mustang to another GTO this time a hardtop with the vinyl top and license plate ZP-1516. (Science and Mechanics)

Alex Walordy is credited as having penned the CARS 03/64 article, as well as the one in Speed & Custom 04/64. Allen Hunt wrote the story in the 03/64 issue of PHR.

[Tom Vaught]

John V Did Tenny ever provide you with the build sheet for the Red Car?

I have a question for you about that build sheet.

Tom V.

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

John V Did Tenny ever provide you with the build sheet for the Red Car?

I have a question for you about that build sheet.

Tom V.

Here ya go, Tom ...

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by War eagle

Maybe the W was the "tag Wangers" instead of Nocturn blue.

Not likely.

Post #49 from this thread:

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

I don't think so. The red car was the one that had "Tag Wangers" on the build sheet, and has no notation on the firewall. Plus, one of the stories posed here is that the blue car was already built and procured for this activity after the fact, so it would not have been destined for Mr Wangers at the time it was going down the line.

I think we are settling on the W being the code for Nocturne Blue. You are correct: it would appear on the cowl tag, but you would not be able to read that code from very far away, especially in the dimly lit assembly plants of the day. That's why the build sheets or build manifests were usually placed in a conspicuous place - to make it easier to read and choose the correct parts. So - a big "W" on the firewall alerts workers the upcoming car is Nocturne Blue, as opposed to black, for example.

(Even today it is difficult to judge colors inside of the assembly plant, both due to the poor lighting or the difference in appearance due to the unnatural/florescent lights).

K

Additionally - it would be fairly obscure to simply place a "W" to indicate "Wangers" when the precedent was "W" for Nocturne Blue.

Lastly - any time we needed to denote something special on a vehicle going down the line we would simply hang an 8.5" x 11" piece of paper on the front with the verbiage spelled out: ie, "First 2013", or "Marketing Vehicle" or "VIP".

Any time I was following a vehicle down the line the guys would usually ask: "...'zis yours?". I'd say "yep" and they would do an extra good job while it was in their station.

K

[War eagle]

So Keith the code scribbled on the firewall tells the paint shop what to color the car without looking at the cowl tag. Sounds right but how come the red car doesn`t have a code on the firewall? For that matter few originals have a code I have noticed. Wasn`t the red car also built in Mich.?

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by War eagle

So Keith the code scribbled on the firewall tells the paint shop what to color the car without looking at the cowl tag.

Yes -

Originally Posted by War Eagle

Sounds right but how come the red car doesn`t have a code on the firewall?

Yes - the red car was also built in Pontiac.

Either it was missed in the original build, or not replicated in the restoration(s).

It wasn't an engineering dictate but more a "help a brutha out" based on local processes.

I notice the truck plants were much more prolific with their writing on the firewalls. Here are a few truck threads I've participated in that demonstrate the concept:

Factory Markings: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...ighlight=Linda

Need Help Deciphering Factory Grease Marks: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...ighlight=Linda

Show Us your Crayon Marks: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...ighlight=Linda

Factory Grease Pencil Marks: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...ighlight=Linda

Z Code Fremont Asssembly http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...light=graffiti

Found my Build Sheet: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...light=graffiti

Numbers at top of firewall: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=545345

"Help CC to the Nuthouse": http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...ghlight=grease

Originally Posted by War Eagle

For that matter few originals have a code I have noticed.

I've noticed quite a few. I suspect that now that it has been pointed out you will see them all over the place.

My own car has a big "A" on the firewall, presumably to designate "Starlight Black".

K

[John V.]

W.E., I'll pass on the reference material loan. I'm way behind on my current reading as it is!

Do you have the March C&D issue? Have you read the article written by Roger Proulx starting on page 70? I think it is informative.

I am convinced that the car JW encouraged him to drag race at Vets Ville Dragway in Toledo, the GTO that JW explained on a "drowsy afternoon in October" in Proulx' office had recently been tuned at Royal, was the same GTO that was driven to NYC in December to be tested over the course of 10 days by C&D staff and THEN driven by John Jerome with his young family from NYC to Daytona for the testing. Proulx describes how "his" GTO was equipped and the description matches the description of the Blue car that was tested at Daytona.

Since this conversation occurred in October and the Red car was built 11/2/63 per the Manifest, I conclude Proulx drag raced the same Blue car that went to Daytona. I don't buy the story that JW tells about the Blue car.

I was not there, JW was. JW says the Blue car did not have a 421. I say picture evidence shows a Blue car that did. Some may consider me out of line here, but some of what I have read or seen attributed to JW just doesn't fit the evidence. People forget and confuse events in their life. I know I have.

W.E., the 015 plate was a Manufacturer's tag IIRC. Those tags could get swapped around. The Blue car shows up in at least two mag articles with the HJ-4471 Michigan tag. I believe it was legitimately registered and tagged with that plate, not a Manufacturer's tag, and was only worn by that particular car.

I have not explored it, but I am not certain that the Red car was the same Red car that was tested in California. I would doubt it would be the same car, is there evidence that it is?

Everybody is welcome to believe what they want here and hold their own opinions. Much of the evidence is circumstantial, so it isn't like the facts are indisputable. I am still interested in learning more about the Blue car if more is to be learned. I am convinced that C&D gushed over the Blue car. Only John Jerome and David E. Davis, Jr. spent any time with the Red car in the few days they were with it in Daytona. They and the rest of the C&D staff piled up over 3000 miles driving the Blue car in NYC and all but one staff member loved it. All told, the Blue car was in their possession about 2 weeks before it headed back to Michigan towing the Red car thru the New Year's Eve ice storm that hit the south on Dec. 31.

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by John V.

Only John Jerome and David E. Davis, Jr. spent any time with the Red car in the few days they were with it in Daytona.

Time spent generating the road test #'s, per Jim and Dave (unless they're lying or forgot?).

Roger Proulx was a copywriter at McManus who created this ad ...

[tempest1964]

Man, they don't write 'em like that anymore!

[Tom Vaught]

Tenny, you ever hear of Jack Watson, the Hurst Shifty Doctor? I had conversations over the years with him, before his passing, a couple of years ago. He was a Michigan Raised Engineer for GM before going to work for George Hurst as the "Shifty Doctor".

People over the years claimed that the "Blue Car" was "crushed". As John V pointed out it had a valid Michigan License Plate and was driven to NYC and to Florida as well as back to Michigan towing the Red Car.

Because Hurst wanted to get the Hurst Shifter installed in the 64 GTO vs just a few Hurst 3 speed and 4 speed Hurst Shifters installed in the 421 SD Catalinas sold or Tempests Sold, a Vehicle was needed to do that engineering work at Hurst. Some say that is the reason why the Blue Car was built before the Red Car. GM Engineers drive "M" Plate vehicles. Anyone, like George Hurst or Jack Watson could drive a valid Michigan License Plate vehicle, (with a Proper VIN Tag and Registration).

So they did the Hurst Engineering work in the Detroit Area as Hurst had a Engineering Center set up there, with Jack Watson running it.
I actually was at one of the Hurst "Engineering Centers" later locations in Mt Clemens, Mi. The original Hurst location was in Madison Hts Michigan.) when Schnorack was running the Red Car on the Drag Strips with Bill Sherman's approval.
I asked Jack about the whereabouts of the Blue Car at that time. Big SMILE. The story that is told a lot it that it was crushed.
Engineering Prototypes get crushed or put in museums. Not vehicles with valid license plates and VIN Numbers.

Seems like a similar story about the Hurst "Hairy Olds" Twin Engine Cutlass being "buried in a field" when people asked where that car was.
Years later the car showed up in the Oldsmobile Museum for a while billed as a "clone of the original car". Every special piece on that car was custom made and no one could duplicate that car exactly like the original was. So the "car from the dead" appeared again. I believe the Blue Car is out there and was never crushed.

That being said, this year at the Detroit Auto Show, there was the Original Steve McQueen 68 Mustang used in the film, not the stripped down camera car (found in mexico), the real deal car driven by Steve McQueen and the Stunt Driver.
Ford had it in their Auto Show display. The owner of the car did not tell anyone he had the Mustang for many many years. It went back into storage after the event this year. $1,000,000 vehicle for sure.

So maybe at some point in your lifetime Tenny, you might see that Blue Car show up again and you can do a Auto Show deal with both cars on the Podium.

Tom V.

ps Jack Watson's "job" when he worked for GM and did special jobs for Bunkie Knutson and Pete Estes was to install "larger" engines in smaller vehicles for engineering work. (clearly noted in many articles about Jack Watson). So the Blue Car in the pic posted WAS given the 421 Engine
not later but most likely EARLIER that the Red Car which had not been built yet by most likely Jack Watson's team who had did other vehicles like it in the past for GM as their jobs.

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Tenny, you ever hear of Jack Watson, the Hurst Shifty Doctor?.

Indeed, Tom. I think Jim introduced Jack to George Hurst?

"Jim suggested that George speak with John (Jack) Watson, a young man who consistently hung out with the crew at Royal Pontiac. George subsequently hired Watson in 1961 to run the new Hurst Aid program at the race track."

Hurst Equipped: More than 50 Years of High Performance. p.23-24

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

So maybe at some point in your lifetime Tenny, you might see that Blue Car show up again and you can do a Auto Show deal with both cars on the Podium..

I'm in!

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

So the Blue Car in the pic posted WAS given the 421 Engine.

A blue car, but THE Blue Car? Royal was doing customer 421 transplants at the time, as you know ...

[War eagle]

Originally Posted by John V.

W.E., I'll pass on the reference material loan. I'm way behind on my current reading as it is!

Do you have the March C&D issue? Have you read the article written by Roger Proulx starting on page 70? I think it is informative.

I am convinced that the car JW encouraged him to drag race at Vets Ville Dragway in Toledo, the GTO that JW explained on a "drowsy afternoon in October" in Proulx' office had recently been tuned at Royal, was the same GTO that was driven to NYC in December to be tested over the course of 10 days by C&D staff and THEN driven by John Jerome with his young family from NYC to Daytona for the testing. Proulx describes how "his" GTO was equipped and the description matches the description of the Blue car that was tested at Daytona.

Since this conversation occurred in October and the Red car was built 11/2/63 per the Manifest, I conclude Proulx drag raced the same Blue car that went to Daytona. I don't buy the story that JW tells about the Blue car.

I was not there, JW was. JW says the Blue car did not have a 421. I say picture evidence shows a Blue car that did. Some may consider me out of line here, but some of what I have read or seen attributed to JW just doesn't fit the evidence. People forget and confuse events in their life. I know I have.

W.E., the 015 plate was a Manufacturer's tag IIRC. Those tags could get swapped around. The Blue car shows up in at least two mag articles with the HJ-4471 Michigan tag. I believe it was legitimately registered and tagged with that plate, not a Manufacturer's tag, and was only worn by that particular car.

I have not explored it, but I am not certain that the Red car was the same Red car that was tested in California. I would doubt it would be the same car, is there evidence that it is?

Everybody is welcome to believe what they want here and hold their own opinions. Much of the evidence is circumstantial, so it isn't like the facts are indisputable. I am still interested in learning more about the Blue car if more is to be learned. I am convinced that C&D gushed over the Blue car. Only John Jerome and David E. Davis, Jr. spent any time with the Red car in the few days they were with it in Daytona. They and the rest of the C&D staff piled up over 3000 miles driving the Blue car in NYC and all but one staff member loved it. All told, the Blue car was in their possession about 2 weeks before it headed back to Michigan towing the Red car thru the New Year's Eve ice storm that hit the south on Dec. 31.

John there is no proof the June Car Life car is the Wangers red car, but no proof its not. I would like to know also. The picture showing the vac throttle and no pyramid (transfer lug as sometimes called) doesn`t mean that is the car being tested. Only the fact that it is red and is tested by Car Life staff, recording 99 mph in the 1/4 with Calif plates is interesting.