[chiphead]

I'm doing a cam swap in a 400. For breaking in a HFT cam, would you guys use Rotella T4 conventional or Rotella T5 semi-synthetic? Rings are already seated, as this engine has been together a long time.

[Steve C.]

https://drivenracingoil.com/images/M198641897.jpg

Driven Racing Oil - The Pioneers of Break-In Oil
We developed our engine break-in oil to fix our flat tappet camshaft problems. Just changing to the BR Break-In Oil from off-the-shelf products, we virtually eliminated break-in failures.





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[Sirrotica]

If the oil is the problem then, yes break in oil could help with a positive experience in a cam break in. If the parts are made incorrectly, such as the crown on the new lifters isn't ground correctly, the case hardening on the lifter bodies isn't done properly, or isn't done at all. The cam lobes aren't tapered to promote the turning of the lifter body, no oil, or additives will make the new parts last. Seems that with many of the HFT lifters being made, many aren't going to meet a QC standard, and survive a long life.

Break in oils aren't/weren't used in new engines, but somehow nowadays every new HFT install needs break in oils, and a 20-30 minute break in period. The oil is probably the last line of defense, but quality parts are the primary problem before oil. Having installed probably 100s of new HFT cams, and lifters from the early 70s, we never did break ins. Put the cam/lifters in, and sent it down the road, never had comebacks for rounded lobes. The current oils, in theory, are supposed to be superior to any oil we had back then, so that only leaves the parts being insufficient in quality. The advent of tool steel lifters hints, that the base steel on production parts is not hard enough at this time.

Engine manufacturers have sidestepped the HFT lifter problems by rollerizing the lifters, as well as rocker arm pivots. I'm certain that the engine malfunctions under warranty were a deciding factor, as most modern pushrod engines will now exceed 200,000 miles with normal maintenance. Even with good maintenance back in the 70s, and 80s, 200,000 mile engine longevity was uncommon, so advancements have been made in durability, and longevity.

IMO, based on my actual hands on experience, the oils are more advanced, but engine parts quality has declined in the last 50 years. The oils can't make up for the poor parts quality. If a cam manufacturer hasn't invested in making their own lifters, they are at the mercy of just a few manufacturers left, that still make HFT lifters. No competition in the market, makes for inferior products. The HFT is becoming obsolete, and no one wants to ante up capital for a fading technology.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

He's more so an expert on oils than anyone I'd even consider on this forum.

Are we really going to take the word of classic car people that don't even drive 500 miles a year and call that a success story?? Hell most of them won't even do an oil analysis to even know what's going on.

Just sayin'

1) Difference is I HAVE HAD the classes in oil testing and actually performed the tests at the university. So I have the knowledge as an Engineer with 39 years of Engineering experience in that area among other areas. Also the BP Representative (had a lot better credentials vs I or the young man who is supposed to be an expert in the link.

So you are "saying" and I am supplying facts.

1) I am perfectly happy with the oil I am using.
2) You are providing an opinion which is typical on a car forum, go for it.

Sounds like another case of P-Envy to me.

Tom V.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

1) Difference is I HAVE HAD the classes in oil testing and actually performed the tests at the university. So I have the knowledge as an Engineer with 39 years of Engineering experience in that area among other areas. Also the BP Representative (had a lot better credentials vs I or the young man who is supposed to be an expert in the link.

So you are "saying" and I am supplying facts.

1) I am perfectly happy with the oil I am using.
2) You are providing an opinion which is typical on a car forum, go for it.

Sounds like another case of P-Envy to me.

Tom V.

Just because you're perfectly happy doesn't make it right. We are supposed to take your word just because you worked as an engineer doing who knows what, or some BP rep told you so? Okay what ever

About the only thing you've claimed you did that somewhat impressed me is stating you at least sent your oil in for an analysis. Congrats, you passed the first step in knowing what your oil is actually doing.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Just because you're perfectly happy doesn't make it right. We are supposed to take your word just because you worked as an engineer doing who knows what, or some BP rep told you so? Okay what ever

About the only thing you've claimed you did that somewhat impressed me is stating you at least sent your oil in for an analysis. Congrats, you passed the first step in knowing what your oil is actually doing.

Actually you are wrong again.
Ford Research sent in the oil samples for the oil analysis.
Standard procedure for durability testing.
The Dyno Engineers and the BP Rep reviewed the data from each sample and I had nothing to do with that.

So again you ASSUMED vs actually knew. Very common this board it seems.

Tom V.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Actually you are wrong again.
Ford Research sent in the oil samples for the oil analysis.
Standard procedure for durability testing.
The Dyno Engineers and the BP Rep reviewed the data from each sample and I had nothing to do with that.

So again you ASSUMED vs actually knew. Very common this board it seems.

Tom V.

So you haven't sampled your own oil, yet you want to tell everyone how it works so well? Shame on you.

You're just mad because I don't get googly eyed every time you want to flash your so called engineering degree on the internet. LOL

[Steve C.]

Beware of Premature Camshaft Failure From Using the Wrong Diesel Oil for Breaking in Gas Engines

https://www.onallcylinders.com/2017/...n-gas-engines/


.

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by chiphead

I'm doing a cam swap in a 400. For breaking in a HFT cam, would you guys use Rotella T4 conventional or Rotella T5 semi-synthetic? Rings are already seated, as this engine has been together a long time.

Go back to post 71 and 80 on this thread. Rotella T4 no longer is rated for most gas engines. Not sure on T5, my guess is it is targeted more at diesels than T4. Formulation changes is something to keep your eye on. When the spark ignition gets dropped it gets my attention. It caught me in that post#71. Lots of good choices for diesel oils in our old cars yet. . Not sure on Rotella since the dropped the SI rating. I still think of it as a very good oil, but not necessarily the best in a old car anymore.

[geeteeohguy]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

If the oil is the problem then, yes break in oil could help with a positive experience in a cam break in. If the parts are made incorrectly, such as the crown on the new lifters isn't ground correctly, the case hardening on the lifter bodies isn't done properly, or isn't done at all. The cam lobes aren't tapered to promote the turning of the lifter body, no oil, or additives will make the new parts last. Seems that with many of the HFT lifters being made, many aren't going to meet a QC standard, and survive a long life.

Break in oils aren't/weren't used in new engines, but somehow nowadays every new HFT install needs break in oils, and a 20-30 minute break in period. The oil is probably the last line of defense, but quality parts are the primary problem before oil. Having installed probably 100s of new HFT cams, and lifters from the early 70s, we never did break ins. Put the cam/lifters in, and sent it down the road, never had comebacks for rounded lobes. The current oils, in theory, are supposed to be superior to any oil we had back then, so that only leaves the parts being insufficient in quality. The advent of tool steel lifters hints, that the base steel on production parts is not hard enough at this time.

Engine manufacturers have sidestepped the HFT lifter problems by rollerizing the lifters, as well as rocker arm pivots. I'm certain that the engine malfunctions under warranty were a deciding factor, as most modern pushrod engines will now exceed 200,000 miles with normal maintenance. Even with good maintenance back in the 70s, and 80s, 200,000 mile engine longevity was uncommon, so advancements have been made in durability, and longevity.
As for the latest article Steve posted, it claims a 100% failure rate of new HFT cams during break-in using CK oils. From what I see, no matter what the oil, about 80% of new HFT cams fail on break in or shortly after, so much so that many builders no longer will use them. All because of crappy quality, period.

IMO, based on my actual hands on experience, the oils are more advanced, but engine parts quality has declined in the last 50 years. The oils can't make up for the poor parts quality. If a cam manufacturer hasn't invested in making their own lifters, they are at the mercy of just a few manufacturers left, that still make HFT lifters. No competition in the market, makes for inferior products. The HFT is becoming obsolete, and no one wants to ante up capital for a fading technology.

This has been my experience as a tech in the auto industry for 42 years. Today's sloppy machining and quality control is the issue. Been running diesel spec oil for the past 20 years in many cars and 100.s of thousands of miles with zero issues. All flat tappet cam cars.
Have seen videos of new name brand cams that would not fit into the engine due to oversize journals, new cams with no taper ground into the lobes, lifters with no crown, and new lifters with oversized bores so the piston leaks and the lifter collapses and fails. If a person were to grab an NOS USA made cam and lifters that were 30-60 years old and use them, there would be no worries. But still some zinc is needed, and it's in certain oils. It was eliminated in 2002 or so due to all the 300,000 mile Hondas burning oil but still in service because it damaged cat converters on oil burning cars. Once again, Brad nailed it.

[Steve C.]

Related. We can like it or not, but its a simple fact much today relies on marketing. And this does not distract from his qualifications within the industry !

Commenting on the appointment, Matt Hartford, CEO and president of Total Seal, commented, “We welcome Lake to Total Seal. There are a multitude of sales and marketing opportunities we want to take advantage of, and we feel Lake is the right person to direct our advancement. His years of experience in racing, technology development in all types of engines, ability to see opportunities in various industries, and his dedication to the sport and industry are important to us going forward.”

Lake Speed Jr. added, “Joining Total Seal is the next step in my journey of tribology ,which is the science of friction, wear and lubrication. The piston ring is the motor oil’s best friend, so it only makes sense to join Total Seal. I have firsthand experience gaining horsepower with their great line of products at Joe Gibbs Racing, and Total Seal has been a Driven Racing Oil customer for seven years. Together, we have learned a lot about piston ring seal, so I’m enthusiastic about this great new opportunity to explore and improve engine efficiency together. The entire Total Seal team is first-class. The organization is passionate and dedicated to excellence and product advancement, so this is a natural fit for me.”

Another example...

TOTAL SEAL’S LAKE SPEED JR. HAS A VISION ON REACHING THE NEXT GENERATION

https://www.competitionplus.com/drag...ext-generation


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[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

So you haven't sampled your own oil, yet you want to tell everyone how it works so well? Shame on you.

You're just mad because I don't get googly eyed every time you want to flash your so called engineering degree on the internet. LOL

Why would I sample my own oil? I do not have the equipment for that actual testing? Ford had a Fuels and Lubricants Lab (with a lot of old timers you did the job for years in research. The BP Guys were there to give a second piece of data with the info we already had.

Some people really do not have a clue how a large automotive company works. Especially in a Research organization.
Lots of opinions by a few people on the board and with virtually no actual knowledge.

So again they ASSume certain things with no real knowledge or facts.

Internet trivia that rarely if ever tells the real story.

Back to the initial topic. I posted that I use 15/40 SE Diesel Oil in my GTO.
That is a fact. The rest of it is opinions and attacks by given individuals to stir the chit.
Quite a few people here use the Diesel Oils in their engines.
I really do not care what the others on the board (chit stirrers) post when they are bored.
And YES, Steve advertising plays a big part in how people assume given things.

Just saying. Tom V.

[Kenth]

I find this a good read.

https://penriteoil.com.au/knowledge-...es/44/zinc/396

I´m using these SL rated 10w40 semisynt. and 10w30 mineral in my GTO´s with HFT cams for some years and they seems fine.

Considering the 10w30universal SF rated oil for break-in oil in my next build. Thoughts on that?
Will 1220-1570 PPM zink and 1250-1530 PPM phosphorus be enough to keep the cam alive?

[chuckies76ta]

No bone in this post for me but I'll throw my .02 in. Friend had a Mercedes C63 AMG with a roots blower and few mods. He ran T6 Rotella oil in that engine. I helped him change it. It was the best oil he ever used in it. The Cam adjusters on that engine were much quieter after that. We changed the head bolts to ARP studs when we installed the blower. It was a little over 4000 * It ran a 10:22 at 137 mph here with our 2200 ft altitude. Not sure what air density was that evening. I even have a video of it. Anyway, point is he sold the car to someone in Ontario and it did some pretty fast street runs. It was unbelievable fast. Last we heard it is still going strong. I believe that Rotella is probably the best diesel oil out there. I've used it in my diesel truck for years now.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Why would I sample my own oil? I do not have the equipment for that actual testing? .

LOL, I meant sending off your samples to blackstone, essentially testing your oil to see how it's doing for your engine.

We also have to keep in mind tests done years ago may not be valid anymore as oils constantly change. In fact one of the links Steve provided is already talking about a big change in diesel oil coming very soon to deal with even more stringent regulations, and dropping viscosities due to the new diesel engine requirements.

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by chuckies76ta

No bone in this post for me but I'll throw my .02 in. Friend had a Mercedes C63 AMG with a roots blower and few mods. He ran T6 Rotella oil in that engine. I helped him change it. It was the best oil he ever used in it. The Cam adjusters on that engine were much quieter after that. We changed the head bolts to ARP studs when we installed the blower. It was a little over 4000 * It ran a 10:22 at 137 mph here with our 2200 ft altitude. Not sure what air density was that evening. I even have a video of it. Anyway, point is he sold the car to someone in Ontario and it did some pretty fast street runs. It was unbelievable fast. Last we heard it is still going strong. I believe that Rotella is probably the best diesel oil out there. I've used it in my diesel truck for years now.

I looked up T6 (assuming I found the current formulation). It does have a SN rating. It said it is recommended for mixed fleets that want to run Diesel and gas engines with the same oil.

[Dragncar]

I think if lifer companies had not gone "offshore" and started selling us these miss manufactured "butter" lifters we would not even be talking about this.
Now we have to over-analyze oil talk, remove inner springs and all that BS.
When we used to fill it with non detergent 30WT and STP and it all lived fine.
Its the metal and machining more than the oil IMO.
I have been running Dello400 (Rotlelas competitor) for awhile now and its works as intended.

[TedRamAirII]

The "Diesel" oils most mentioned are out of date. Most modern "Diesel" (C) rated oils are not rated for Gasoline (S) engines. The newer oils a have a lot less additives/different additives than their old advertising documents state. I will continue to use 10w30 Brad Penn oil. They know more about oil than Certified Internet Engineers.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by TedRamAirII

The "Diesel" oils most mentioned are out of date. Most modern "Diesel" (C) rated oils are not rated for Gasoline (S) engines. The newer oils a have a lot less additives/different additives than their old advertising documents state. .

Correct, and as one of the links above stated the diesel oil is going through yet another change this upcoming year to conform to more regulations and the newer diesel engines.

[dataway]

I wonder when the last new HFT lifter manufacturing/grinding machines were made? 40 years ago? Hard to believe anyone is still making new machines designed for HFT lifters ... although ... the US and Europe are not the world, lots of HFT cams still being used in "new" vehicles in places like India, Russia, China I'm assuming they don't all fail out of the box. I assume lots of HFT lifters are still used in various off highway vehicles, stationary engines etc.

Are roller cam cores made of the same materials as HFT cams? Are roller cam machines capable of grinding HFT cams? And, as mentioned above, lots of other countries are probably still using HFT cams in domestic production

I'm thinking a lot of our problems come from that fact that most manufacturers are probably using ancient machinery that has seen way better days.