[Formulajones]

That's why I was interested in uoa's that show actual results. Not sure I'd trust a rep that has skin in the game if ya know what I mean. But the uoa's dont lie.

Ive never sent in a boutique oil sample that has sat in an engine for a long time and for that to even be accurate it would have to be drained without warming up the engine anyway. I'd like to see those results.

[78w72]

I agree on reps when asking about their products, but my question was more about oil age in general, im sure if i called back the next day and spoke with a different rep the answer would be different.

I also go by what many life long mechanics & racers I know have said on oil topics like this or weights or zinc etc, as well as my personal experience which seems to be working very good over a few decades with classic pontiacs and daily drivers of different makes.

A UOA of low mile oil but at 1 year old would be very interesting. I understand not draining it but really too many variables with that depending on how/where it was stored & how often it was driven to full temp during that time. In my cars, the low mile oil that is 1 year or older does get started & used, full temp drives that burn off any moisture, in winter they sit for a few months without any short starts that introduce lots of moisture. So the engine could be started & fully warmed before the sample is taken since most cars are used during the 1 year or more age of the oil. Im sure 1 year will have different results than 2 or 3 years.

Whats the current price for a test at blackstone?

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by 78w72

Yes im aware of combustion byproducts and acids etc... there are additives in all oils that neutralize them, with lower miles as mentioned, the additives do what they are supposed to do... theres no difference from sitting for a short time with lower miles than driving the car to reach the maximum miles before an oil change, if anything taxed oil at the end of its life has more acids in it and is exposed to more moisture from starting & driving. Clean low mile oil is perfectly safe to sit for a few months during storage or a full year. Valvoline confirmed this when I asked.



The valvoline article/FAQ was quoted in regards to new oil in the bottle, as I mentioned I have/use older but new oils all the time without issue, and there are lots of people out there with stashes of older oils older than 5-8-10 years.

Some people seem to think new oil goes bad sitting in the bottle for a few years so I quoted the info. Some also think clean oil with lower miles in the engine for ~1 year goes bad and needs to have a special additive package... but then again some think they need VR1 racing oil in their stock cam engine, none of that is true or based on any scientific proof. Valvoline as well as many mechanics I know have said low mile clean oil is perfectly fine to use after 1 year, and based on my experience of doing that for 25+ years theres is nothing to indicate otherwise.

Not really. I have seen both cranks, cams and bearing pitted by acidic oil in engines that were not warmed up long enough to burn the acidic compounds or the moisture out of the oil. And yes, oil for aircraft piston engines, diesel engines and classic automotive engine allegedly have these “acid neutralizing compounds” in them, but in my 6,000 engines of experience I have seen few engines that were stored long term that DIDN’T have varying degrees of acid damage.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by 78w72

I agree on reps when asking about their products, but my question was more about oil age in general, im sure if i called back the next day and spoke with a different rep the answer would be different.

I also go by what many life long mechanics & racers I know have said on oil topics like this or weights or zinc etc, as well as my personal experience which seems to be working very good over a few decades with classic pontiacs and daily drivers of different makes.

A UOA of low mile oil but at 1 year old would be very interesting. I understand not draining it but really too many variables with that depending on how/where it was stored & how often it was driven to full temp during that time. In my cars, the low mile oil that is 1 year or older does get started & used, full temp drives that burn off any moisture, in winter they sit for a few months without any short starts that introduce lots of moisture. So the engine could be started & fully warmed before the sample is taken since most cars are used during the 1 year or more age of the oil. Im sure 1 year will have different results than 2 or 3 years.

Whats the current price for a test at blackstone?

The lifelong mechanic and engine builder who taught me most of what I know about engines would tell you to change the damn oil! Of course, his engines only won two USAC National Sprint Car Championships; the other lifelong mechanic and engine builder who taught me much about building modern competition engines would tell you to change the damn oil. He only won an NHRA World Championship. What would they know?

[78w72]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

Not really. I have seen both cranks, cams and bearing pitted by acidic oil in engines that were not warmed up long enough to burn the acidic compounds or the moisture out of the oil. And yes, oil for aircraft piston engines, diesel engines and classic automotive engine allegedly have these “acid neutralizing compounds” in them, but in my 6,000 engines of experience I have seen few engines that were stored long term that DIDN’T have varying degrees of acid damage.

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

The lifelong mechanic and engine builder who taught me most of what I know about engines would tell you to change the damn oil! Of course, his engines only won two USAC National Sprint Car Championships; the other lifelong mechanic and engine builder who taught me much about building modern competition engines would tell you to change the damn oil. He only won an NHRA World Championship. What would they know?

Thats great you had those experiences, but again way too many variables to say that happens to everyone elses engines. You said in those situations the engines werent warmed up long enough to get rid of moisture... that doesnt apply to my examples & experiences or most others that know how to store an engine properly.

So just to clarify this, when I talk about oil changes at 1 year or longer I mean for engines that are stored properly or get driven regularly/occasionally to fully warm up the engine/oil and on a healthy engine... other situations with other types of engines like air craft or high mile dirty engines or short starts some do in the winter to "lubricate the seals" that introduces lots of moisture dont apply here.

[78w72]

FJ- I meant to say in my last post about a UOA for low mile but 1 year or more oil that "not starting" it before draining has too many variables, most engines are started & ran after sitting for X amount of time so any moisture etc is burned off... that would be the more accurate way to test oil that sits for awhile but is used, like the average classic car.

[Formulajones]

My question would be how harmful are those start ups for the engine with old oil sitting for long periods. I'd like to see an OA before and after to see just how corrosive it might be.

I don't know, that whole "leave the oil in" for years just because it doesn't have mileage on it doesn't sound like a super idea to me. Not something I'd do with my very expensive engines. OA's would tell the story.

It's interesting stuff, I'm just not willing to do it with my stuff but I'd entertain someone else that wants to subject there engines to that sort of testing

[78w72]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

My question would be how harmful are those start ups for the engine with old oil sitting for long periods. I'd like to see an OA before and after to see just how corrosive it might be.

I don't know, that whole "leave the oil in" for years just because it doesn't have mileage on it doesn't sound like a super idea to me. Not something I'd do with my very expensive engines. OA's would tell the story.

It's interesting stuff, I'm just not willing to do it with my stuff but I'd entertain someone else that wants to subject there engines to that sort of testing

I guess I see it different... why/how does 1 year old oil with very low miles just all of a sudden "go bad"? & if it did go bad, when does that happen, was it good at 11 months but some arbitrary date of 12 months magically makes it bad?

Have never seen any tests or proof to support that and based on my experience thats not reality. Ive seen lots of UOA's that show oils of different brands over 1 year old, even at much higher miles than we are discussing here, are still perfectly healthy.

[Formulajones]

Corrosion would be the one big concern. As mentioned conventional oils have still shown corrosion problems from sitting which is likely why some boutique oils felt they needed a formulated oil just for that purpose.

As to your other question, when and how long, that's what the OA's are for, great for determining things like that as well as change intervals, filter effectiveness and whether the oil is doing what it's supposed to be doing, which is why I mentioned I'm interested in seeing the different results. It's really the only concrete way to answer those types of questions.

[78w72]

Most if not all the UOA's for oil at 1 year or longer Ive seen showed corrosion wasnt an issue on the engines and brands of oil that were tested. But with all the variables to this type of thing like oil brand, engine condition, driving & storage conditions, etc, there really is no way to get a definite answer, all we can go on is what works over long periods of time, and of course UOA results like this one...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-yt5a1cWd4

These arent exactly controlled scientific tests but gives a good idea of certain things like wear or pour rates, this guy does tests for all kinds of things related to oil and engines, but his test on 17 month old oil with high miles vs new oil show identical results on the wear test and very close on other tests. But the samples he sent are what supports what Im saying, every part of the results showed the oil was perfectly fine, even the TBN numbers were excellent. Based on UOA's, personal experience & tests like this one I have zero concerns using 1 year old clean low mile oil in my expensive engines or daily drivers.

Projectfarm also has a cool test with 2 or 3 new small engines, one with oil, one treated with STP & one treated with... Lucas he drains the oil and lets them run until they blow up! The one treated with lucas lasted the longest, and not by a small amount, it ran for ~10 minutes more!

[jhein]

Interesting discussion. So as I said, my last sample had about 2000 miles on it. The car was then stored for winter. I said 5-6 months but it was really 5 months. Then I drove it a few hundred miles before I changed the oil and sent the sample in. So it will be interesting to see what my next sample looks like with similar miles and use but no storage time.

[Dragncar]

Just pick a good oil and change it regularly folks and all will be well.

[mgarblik]

Many of us have had a great mentor or teacher to help us advance in the hobby. Mine was my High School auto shop teacher Mr. James Halderman. Some of you probably know the name because he went on to a full career as a College Automotive instructor and author of 19 Automotive Textbooks still in print by Prentice Hall/Pearson Education systems. He had a TON of sayings that I still use and remember. The one for this thread is: "Oil is cheaper than metal".

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

Many of us have had a great mentor or teacher to help us advance in the hobby. Mine was my High School auto shop teacher Mr. James Halderman. Some of you probably know the name because he went on to a full career as a College Automotive instructor and author of 19 Automotive Textbooks still in print by Prentice Hall/Pearson Education systems. He had a TON of sayings that I still use and remember. The one for this thread is: "Oil is cheaper than metal".

Mike, that was pretty much both Bud’s and Mike’s take: clean oil is cheap insurance!

[Formulajones]

Agree. Oil is chump change compared to engine costs.

Has anyone even built an engine recently? I mean with today's bidenomics prices? I'm not talking about a quicky hone job either that you would do to a lawn mower engine.

Because my son and I just finished a little 327 sbc. Nice aluminum headed hydraulic roller setup and when it was all said and done it was $14,034 and that doesn't include the parts I donated to the project like the block, the forged crank, the $350 oil pan and $800 set of headers. All that was basically free.

Why would I not want what's best for the engine when it comes to oil?

I sure as hell am not going to let oil sit in it for years and it's also going to get an oil formulated for best protection I can provide, with regular OA's to start with just to make sure it's getting what it needs.

[78w72]

Thats all great advice and Im not trying to say that approach is wrong in any way, if anyone wants to change perfectly good oil just because it hit some calendar date thats their choice, but the reality is that CLEAN, LOW MILE oil does not go bad at 1 year or even a little longer.

Some have said they need UOA's to confirm that, i just posted one from older than 1 year and high miles on a high mile vehicle, along with some tests that show its perfectly good oil, and there are all kinds of other OA's of 1 year old oil with higher miles than the situations I mentioned proving its still good and provides protection needed.

Yes I have built an expensive engine recently, not during this administration but right before it and the price was about the same as FJ mentioned above... I use the oil type that was suggested by not only the short block builder but by SD who supplied the cam/lifters... i dont use additives or racing oils because its not a dedicated race car, its built to street tolerances and has excellent oil psi using 10/30 oil.

I realize some on here have a different sometimes alarmist type approach to things, nothing wrong with that. I prefer to be a little more optimistic & realistic in life. Until I see UOA's or other test data that shows oil in a healthy properly stored engine goes bad after a short time like 1 year, I will stick with whats worked for me for 35+ years.

And I never suggested letting it sit "for years", Ive always said 1 year maybe a few months more and the cars are driven some to burn off any moisture.

[Formulajones]

The only issue is we really don't know if it's perfectly good oil until an OA is done.
The "sit for years" came from other posters in the thread.
Me personally I'd like to see a comparison between something like amsoil zrod formulated for sitting, vs a conventional oil under the same circumstances. Chances of that are slim to none but I'd bet money you'll see differences. I'm not willing to subject my stuff to that kind of test so I'm just going to error on the safe side. It's not like we're talking a bunch of money. Besides the fact that my stuff don't sit like that anyway so I'm not worried about that aspect of things.

[78w72]

OA's have been done... i posted one with other real world tests from a guy thats tested more oils than anyone on here, and theres probably hundreds or thousands of OA's out there showing the same thing, all different oil brands, vehicles, mileage & age, almost all of them have comments from the companies saying the oil is healthy and has more life in it.

I mentioned the 700 miles/yr for 3 years is more than the examples Im giving of 1 year.

Id like to see comparisons between specialty & conventional regular & synthetic oils too, I dont doubt there would be differences... but this subject isnt really about differences, its about regular clean low mile oils "going bad" at 1 year like some are claiming. Seems like other situations or extreme what ifs are getting mixed in here. But even with differences, OA's showing regular oils are still ok at 1 year is what matters.

FJ's situation is different than many others on here that do store their cars for prolonged periods over winters or for other reasons and dont drive more than ~1000 miles in 1 year, regardless of price of oil, I see no reason to change oil in that situation and have yet to see OA's that support that.

[tjs72lemans]

I've always tried to change my classic cars at the 2500 mile mark regardless of time. Unfortunately, it turns into many years. Now, knowing better and educated on acidic issues sitting in the oil pan and bearings make me change more often. Never an issue though with some I've treated that way for 40 years and tens of thousands of miles. Also in an environment like MN, they sit for up to six months at a time. But, sit they do. No starting just to warm up.
With this being my first Pontiac and a fresh expensive build, I wanted to change the oil sooner. I guess my 3 year and 2100 miles wasn't soon enough. When I start it, I drive it. No start just to warm and shut off. This time I thought I was changing it a bit sooner, but that was because I wanted to make sure any build residue left from the 500 mile oil change got dumped sooner. Looks like I may change it sooner this time to see what a new analysis looks like. I have 800 miles on new oil now, so it will probably be next year. I remember a post where one individual claimed he does the analysis so he's not wasting money on oil changes that aren't needed. I feel like my analysis says I'm not changing it soon enough. It doesn't tell you that. You have to read into it.

[locomotivebreath]

How do you guys manage to drive your cars so little ? My car was ‘done’ in November 23 , I’ve clocked about 3,600 miles so far . I just cruise the Cincinnati tristate area .