[grivera]

Before the high zinc oils, all we had was a decent oil with an additive like GM EOS lubricant. I don't see how using an oil with an additive is the issue, but could see where no additive at all may be the problem.

[mgarblik]

The last 4 Pontiac engines I have been involved with at the school or personal use have been flat tappet solid, (2) and flat tappet hydraulic (2). Flat tappet hydraulics were set up at 135-140 closed and 290-300 open. Flat tappet solids, 145-150 closed, 320-330 open. I think the oil used doesn't really matter as long as non-synthetic for ring break-in. I used what I had easy access to. 2 of them Amsoil break-in oil, 1, VR1, 1 Joe Gibbs break-in oil. Used a product called Cam Shield on the lifter bottoms and cam lobes. Broke-in with outer spring only on all of them for 1/2 hour from 0-30% load variable on the dyno. No issues.

In the last 20-22 years at my school, we have had 4 cam and/or lifter failures on the dyno. This is out of 12-16 engines a year. So that's about 300 engines give or take. No Pontiac failures. The 2 flat tappet failures were both small block Fords. One was a puny, restoration style rebuild on a 260 Cu In. with stock parts. 105 lbs on the seat and barely 200 lbs. open Took 3-4 cam lobes off in 1/2 hour break in. Engine started to miss and we found it quickly. He went back with a roller cam. The other one was a 347 Ford stroker. It lasted through break-in and 3-4 dyno pulls. Took a couple lobes off. The roller cam failures were 1 small block Chevy and 1 big block Chevy. The small block had a tie bar break-off during break-in and it turned and killed the cam and damaged the lifter bore. We had to sleeve it. Plus other damage. The big block had one hydraulic roller lifter that would never pump up. Big, noisy ticker. We tried everything we could to make it work, no luck. It was a Morel lifter and made in such a way it could not be disassembled once the tie bar was riveted in place. Didn't do any damage but we never figured out what the cause was. They sent a new pair and it did fine. So I don't think the number of failures are as high as it seems in the internet. But a failure CAN be quite traumatic, expensive and time consuming to fix.

[67Lemons]

Never heard of Cam Shield, do you think it helped?

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by EksCelle

I threw a 2802 with the cheap Summit brand lifters in my 455 last summer, also with 68404 springs but 1.5 rockers. I pulled the inner springs for break-in, and while I like to think it helped, it likely wouldn't have mattered. Runs great! I didn't know people were having issues with Summit cams.

I would like to see what kind of oil people are running when they experience a cam failure. I haven't lost an FT cam yet, but I always run a proper break in oil like Lucas. How many cam failures are due to running a cheap oil with an additive rather than a proper non detergent break in oil?

That's just it, we really don't know what other people are doing when they are breaking in a new camshaft. Most of the time we don't know the fine details so we can only speculate at best. More times than not I'll say it's more likely operator error than a parts problem but that's not to say there aren't parts failures happening. The internet just makes it seem more prevalent than it really is, as Mgarblik points out. I've seen this stuff happening since the 70's, throughout the 80's I've seen it, and to be honest I don't really see it any more now than I did then, the only difference is we have the internet now.

Oils can be a factor for sure. I've even seen people on this forum post how they'll use diesel oil for break in. If there is any oil out there that has to be the worst for something like that it's diesel oil. That stuff has more detergents in it than your wife's dish washer. It's designed for dirty running diesels, not breaking in engines and camshafts. After all that lube you just put all over your cam and lifters what do you think all those detergents from a diesel oil is going to do. Terrible idea and if cam manufactures actually found out this was being done I can only imagine the **** storm that would conjure up.
Yet people do it, some get away with it. Those that don't always want to blame the parts. In most cases if a claim is done the first thing they'll want to see is an oil analysis, that should speak volumes to anyone.
And why not use an oil specified for the job anyway. Why not give every opportunity for the cam to live. Is it because people don't want to spend an extra $10 for the 5 or 6 quarts of oil they need vs something cheaper off the shelf? I guess but that just doesn't make any sense in so many ways. We could go on and on but don't think it really makes much difference.

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by 67Lemons

Never heard of Cam Shield, do you think it helped?

I can't really say for sure. I ended up with about 50 packets of the stuff when I was helping to settle Joe Mondello's estate about 10 years ago. Joe obviously liked it. It looks like many of the gray, molly based, thicker paste products. Figured it couldn't hurt and I have a bunch. It's still available. Just checked.

[glhs#116]

My opinions come from a more general deduction. The OEMs didn’t break in cams. They just built and delivered. Yes, those were gentle low lift cams. But also on many measures the oil was worse on the 70s.

From my own experience I have done a lot of the right things and had lifters and cams go. My current cam is perfect even though I struggled to start it for the break in for a while before realising the distributor was 180 degrees out. It has been in six years and a decent amount of racing.

The cam I just put in a month ago fired up straight away and got oil pressure in seconds. It is gone on at least two lobes. Hence my old cam will be going back in.

My opinion is that the QA just isn’t always there these days to have the right surface profile and hardness on the cams and lifters we can buy today. Hence all the elaborate procedures.

Sam

[Holeshot71]

Originally Posted by glhs#116

My opinions come from a more general deduction. The OEMs didn’t break in cams. They just built and delivered. Yes, those were gentle low lift cams. But also on many measures the oil was worse on the 70s.

From my own experience I have done a lot of the right things and had lifters and cams go. My current cam is perfect even though I struggled to start it for the break in for a while before realising the distributor was 180 degrees out. It has been in six years and a decent amount of racing.

The cam I just put in a month ago fired up straight away and got oil pressure in seconds. It is gone on at least two lobes. Hence my old cam will be going back in.

My opinion is that the QA just isn’t always there these days to have the right surface profile and hardness on the cams and lifters we can buy today. Hence all the elaborate procedures.

Sam

Hey Sam, what brand cam and lifters did you use and what was the profile?

[glhs#116]

Originally Posted by Holeshot71

Hey Sam, what brand cam and lifters did you use and what was the profile?

It was a custom cam grind done for me by Jay. Looked really nice. Max lift around .507. I had the V-Pro Max Rhoads lifters with it. I should mention, the Rhoads lifters were bought earlier this year as the ones I bought back when I got the cam in 2019 had surface rusted. The cam was perfect. It's making me suspect the lifters but they did look fine and all were rotating initially.

I should be tearing it apart on the weekend. I'll take some pics.

Sam

[67Lemons]

That’s disappointing to hear using a quality cam & lifters, I’d think the Rhoads especially would have helped successfully break in the cam.

[Tim Corcoran]

Originally Posted by 67Lemons

That’s disappointing to hear using a quality cam & lifters, I’d think the Rhoads especially would have helped successfully break in the cam.

As a side note, Rhodes are made by Hy-Lift Johnson then modified by Rhodes.

[Formulajones]

And Hylift is better known for their high quality hydraulic roller lifters. Johnson, a different company are considered the go to for flat tappets.

However Ive never seen or experienced a problem with Rhodes lifters and Jay said he checked over the cam and gave it a clean bill of health.

[Tim Corcoran]

Have had several hyd and solid flat tappets over the years and had one failure, this was an 068 clone like 20 years ago. Didn't fail on break in but sometime after. Recently had a hyd roller failure, axle pins on the roller coming out.