[Sirrotica]

On a rusty surface body panel such as the bottom of a door, I wire brush the loose rust off, then coat the bare metal with phosphoric acid (phosphoric acid can be bought at big box, HD, Lowes, stores for cleaning concrete floors). The acid neutralizes the rust, and can be primed over after it dries. Primer is an important step when working with surface rusted metal.

I don't claim to be a body man or painter, but I've used this prep after reading up on it. It worked well for a car with failed lacquer paint, and surface rust spots where the paint failed.

If there are actual rust through holes, then you'll have to handle that in a different way.

On the fuel filter, you can try the glass bowl type, but there are 2 drawbacks with them. The gasket between the base and the bowl have a tendency to leak, and you have a glass bowl that is susceptible to cracking, or breaking due to a freak accident. If you're just looking for a functional filter I would go with a traditional inline metal canister, but you may wish to be more period correct with the glass bowl type.

[Parkman51]

Well, today I prepared to conduct some more tests, and see if I could get good evidence one way or another on the fuel pump. Unfortunately, when I cranked the engine, nothing happened - it just clicked and was silent. Have I gotten the engine stopped at mid-stroke or something, which is causing the starter to have poor leverage? Battery's fine, and no other obvious indication that something had gone wrong. I've been careful as I can not to overcrank or tire out the starter motor, so I hope it's not that.

Great advice on paint from both Larry and Sirrotica, I'll move in that direction. The factory paint color is White Mist. I actually decoded the Fisher Body plate awhile ago, and was saving it up for a day in which I didn't get much else done (Huzzah! That's today!), so observe below: As best I understand from the information on Larry's website, that the car is the 4-door Custom sedan, with the body built in the South Gate, CA plant – and quite early in the lineup, too, 35k of these were built. The car’s interior was originally ‘Light Blue Pattern and Dark Blue Sharkskin Cloth with Dark Blue Leather Facings,’ (for which I don't have a visual reference) and the exterior was single-color White Mist (hub covers so as well). On the website it is recorded that paint code 40 is not well documented and has an unknown wheel color, so I hope this proves useful for your records. The tag is still on the passenger side.



Today's two questions:
1. Assuming I haven't bricked the starter, how do I fix the issue? Do I have to manually advance the engine a cylinder, and if so, how?
2. Any additional insights that you have from the Fisher Body plate?

[Parkman51]

Short update today. I picked up some primer, paint, and phosphoric acid from the local hardware store. Got started wire brushing and phosphorizing the lower edge of the doors, we'll see how that pans out tomorrow. Poked around in the engine compartment a bit to see if I could advance the engine and test the fuel pump, but nothing looked like a good idea. I have another idea I can try tomorrow. Onwards!

[Safari Larry]

If you decide to use an inline canister fuel filter, consider putting it before the fuel pump so it doesn't show in the engine compartment.

Question 1. Starter problem. When you attempt to start the car, hear a click, and the engine doesn't turn over... What is happening is the starter solenoid is engaging and making the click, but then the starter isn't turning over. The starter solenoid engages the starter gear with the flywheel and closes circuit to transmit power to the starter. When I hear a click and then engine doesn't turn over, first thing I think of is the battery is weak. If the battery is good, next thing, check connections at battery and at starter solenoid. Given connections are good, perhaps a bad solenoid that is not making good electrical connection to the starter. Review the Shop Manual beginning on page 12-16, "STARTING CIRCUIT DESCRIPTION" to understand how the solenoid works with the starter. Some diagnosis procedures are given there.

Question 2. Your Fisher Body Data Plate is very interesting, thanks for sharing. Good that you have already decoded it. The paint White Mist code 40 is interesting and only the second I've ever seen. Note that it does not show up at https://www.pontiacsafari.com/L1Earl...ColorChart.pdf. However White Mist does show up as lower color in paint codes 5594 and 5595. I suspect solid White Mist Code 40 showed up quite late in the year. Paint code 40 continues to be a bit of a mystery.

Your thought that it was an early build is not correct. 35K of that body style were built at ALL of the Fisher Body plants and South Gate was just one of eight plants. Each plant starts with 1 for each body style. To use the Body No. to estimate build date, you would need to know how many of that model were produced at the South Gate Fisher Body plant. The number of Star Chiefs with Hydra-Matic produced at the South Gate plant is available in the MPC but that includes all Star Chief models, so not helpful. Two things about the car tell me that it was mid-year or later build. (1) It has the Power Pack (4-barrel) option that was released in March 55. (2) It has a "spring" color that was not available earlier in the year. The serial number on the door jamb can give a fair estimate of when the car rolled off the Pontiac assembly line. That's the only way I know of to estimate build date.

There are no options shown after ACC. Interesting. Accessories shown in the ACC field are only for options that affect body build by Fisher Body. So that would not include things such as Power Brakes, Power Steering and Power Pack. I would expect to see the AC option listed as it affects body build with modified dash and firewall, plus I would expect to see the power radio antennae option.

You have some original documentation. Do you have an original sales invoice or receipt that shows options -- and date?

[Bill Hanlon]

Originally Posted by Safari Larry

check connections at battery and at starter solenoid.

Don't forget to check the ground connections from the engine (to the frame?) and to battery negative cable.

[Parkman51]

It's out!



Tomorrow I'll take a detailed look through the shop manual and see if anything jumps out at me. There was a loose connection (that, inconveniently, I could only see once I had pulled it out) but that's the way it goes. I accidentally broke the junction block while I was detaching the wiring harness, but thankfully I found what seems to be a matched replacement online and ordered that.

Hopefully I'll get some painting done tomorrow as well. Sometimes it seems like we're moving one step forward and one step back, but I know that in the big picture we're advancing at a pretty good clip. I try to do something every day.

Got an email from Inline Tube as well, they've already shipped my new fuel line. This is great, because they originally said I should allow 1-2 weeks lead time. Huzzah for efficiency!

No questions today, other than if you have any tips or advice for testing the starter or getting a nice coat of paint on.

[Jack Gifford]

Advice for testing starter: Tie it down before trying it. If it were to start to spin it might run over your foot! (Lots of mass/inertia in the armature).

[Parkman51]

Today was busier than I expected, so I wasn't able to dig into the starter. But I got the coolant and new wiper blades in today, and installed the wipers!



Today's two questions:
1. I need some advice on parts: I'm looking for an electric wiper motor, and most of them come with a 2-speed switch. However, this car originally had (and I plan to refit) the windshield washer as well, so will I need a special motor/switch? Found this listing online: https://newportwipers.com/product/19...tiac/#switches
2. I'd like to replace one of the wires that run from the starter to the junction block. CPR has a listing for the whole bundle, but they're out of stock. Is there any reason I can't replace the wire myself, just getting the right gauge wire and re-running it through the bundle?

[Bill Hanlon]

Originally Posted by Parkman51

I'd like to replace one of the wires that run from the starter to the junction block. CPR has a listing for the whole bundle, but they're out of stock. Is there any reason I can't replace the wire myself, just getting the right gauge wire and re-running it through the bundle?

No reason at all. There are only 3 circuits involved with that junction block:

1. Ignition switch "sol" terminal to solenoid "S" terminal (originally purple)
2. Solenoid "R" terminal to the coil side of the "coil resistor", sometimes known as the "ballast resistor" (originally black)
3. Solenoid battery terminal distributing "always on" 12V to all places (originally yellow).

[Parkman51]

I treated the driver's rear door seal area today, wire-brushing off the rust and painting with phosphoric acid. Gave the front door one more coat too, just for good measure - it did a nice job cleaning the surface rust up. I'll have to wait to paint for a day that I have good lighting to work with, but hopefully that will be within the next week. Tomorrow I'm aiming to pick up some wire (thanks Bill!) and re-run at least one of those cables going to the starter, then I'll try wiring it back up and cranking. Hopefully a good dusting, a bit of light oil, and newly secured connections will have worked some magic.

No new questions today, just yesterday's about the wiper motor.

[Parkman51]

Went to about four different stores today on the way to/from work, and got the pieces I needed to rerun the "always on" 12v wire (yes, it was the original yellow one, and it was so old that the insulation cracked when I bent it). At one point, the insulation had been heated or abraded away by something, and this seems not very recent, as the copper was well-oxidized. Seeing that is what determined me to replace this line.



So, a 3' length of 8 gauge 19 strand, one small ring terminal for the junction block side, and one 3/8" ring terminal for the solenoid side, and all was in order. I gently refit the starter to see if that fixed any issues, and glory-hallelujah, it fired right up. A little love and a few secured connections, and away it went.

"But Parkman51," I hear you ask, "What about that broken junction block? How did you get it working without the new one having come in yet?" Well, with another of my patent 'if it's stupid and it works' stopgaps. Observe the Junction (Literal) Block.



Anyway, now that cranking the engine is back on the menu, I can return to my old nemesis, the FUEL-PUMP. Hopefully I'll have some updates on that front for you tomorrow, but we shall see.

[Bill Hanlon]

Looks like the magic smoke got out of that yellow wire.

[Parkman51]

Right ho, fuel pump day.

Here's why I originally thought the pump wasn't working: when I reattached the gas tank and cranked the engine (a week or so ago, before the Starter Saga), the car probably ran for a total of about 30-45 seconds through several cycles in which I manually added gas to the carb and started the engine. Yet the pump didn't pull gas from the tank at all. In fact, when I disconnected the sending unit to check if gas had at least gotten out of the sending unit, the answer was no - the connecting line I installed was totally dry.

Here's why I now think the pump is working, at least somewhat. I took a spare piece of fuel line, connected it to the pump inlet, and ran it out the bottom of the car into a glass jar of gasoline, with some graduated marks on it so I could check the levels. After 4-5 cycles of adding gas to the carb and starting the engine (total run time ~30 seconds), the level of gas in the jar dropped from slightly above the top long mark to slightly below the next shorter mark under it.



Today's two questions:
1. Why didn't the pump pull from the tank, but seems to pull from the jar? I put about 2 gallons of gas in the tank, maybe that isn't enough to completely immerse the sending unit's pickup, and we were sucking air? Does the difference in the jar above give you enough information to estimate whether the pump is functioning to its proper capacity, or is weak?
2. Wheels and tires: I found some inexpensive (thin whitewall) tires at walmart, but will I need new wheels/rims? There's some rust on the outside of the wheels - the worst section is shown below, all the other wheels are better than this one.

[Rachelsdad]

Sorry; been traveling for a convention which wore me out, and then the fun which so many of us experienced at the beginning of last week with airline schedules... Ugh. Finally back to feeling more like myself, and getting out and under the hood of my own '56 project...

So:

Originally Posted by Parkman51

Rachelsdad is a genius again, I don't know why I didn't think of using fuel line to connect the fuel line.

Wow... I'm humbled. Please pass that comment along to my wife... Seriously, you're too kind, and very welcome for the tip. Indeed, sometimes, all that's required is for someone else to state the obvious in order to get us back on track (and I'm hoping for a bit of that myself in a separate thread to be started shortly).

<skipping ahead as much ground has been covered in the past few days>

Then I also removed the old weatherstripping from the two driver's side doors, which was a colossal mess.

LOL! When I recently replaced my original weatherstripping on my '63, it was unbelievably messy. First, I made sure to have the proper 3M weatherstrip adhesive solvent on hand, sprayed around the perimeter, and then of course, discovered that the original sealant had long since lost its grip on anything other than the rubber or the door (never both at the same time in the same place). Once I got the millions of pieces and the dust off of the door (by simply pulling) and I got whatever was left cleaned off, I installed the new weatherstripping. At that point, I found that at about 6" from closing, the doors sprung open. LOL It took about a week for them to squish down to form. The A pillar weatherstrips on the convertible were just as much fun.

I found some rust at the bottom of the doors. What's the best way to deal with this?

Well, as a practical matter, Brad's approach is surely sound. Some years ago, I also had some success with one of the "rust converter" products (can't recall which offhand), followed by the use of All Metal filler (which was really aluminized epoxy filler; add catalyst, apply with a hard rubber squeegee, allow to cure, sand, primer-surfacer, paint). You still have the inside of the door to address, and this cannot be understated. You are going to have to get in there and apply something to stop the rust before sealing the outside.

The proper way to repair this is to grind/cut out the rotted steel and weld new metal. This is a longer process, of course, but will produce lasting, quality results.So, for now, scrape/sand, phosphoric acid, prime, and top coat will do, but just know that you'll have to address the inside of the panel and make a proper repair down the road.

Starter woes: A couple interesting bits for you:

The engine in my '68 Deville refused to crank one day. I didn't have it; I'd dropped it with the local repair shop near my Virginia house for some minor stuff. They told me that after puzzling over it for a few days, they finally decided to put a breaker bar on the harmonic balancer bolt and turn the engine just a bit. According to them, after this, the starter worked just as it had before. None of this made any sense to me, so I'm just relating it as it was passed along to me.

When my '63 was in the shop, we went through the usual stuff (battery voltage, cable clamps at the battery - I have original style spring rings - , the lug at the starter, ground straps). Finally, we determined that my heavy duty starter was simply no longer so "heavy duty," so we pulled it and took it to a reputable local rebuilder. It now sings. The moral of the story? Never underestimate the effects of time on electrical components. I'll bet that if your voltage is good and your solenoid is giving a real "click!" (as opposed to an anemic "tick!"), your starter just needs a rebuild. You probably got the last you were going to get out of it on your first attempts to start the car.

No additional comments on wiring or fuel filters; I think that ground has been pretty well covered.

Originally Posted by Parkman51

1. Why didn't the pump pull from the tank, but seems to pull from the jar? I put about 2 gallons of gas in the tank, maybe that isn't enough to completely immerse the sending unit's pickup, and we were sucking air? Does the difference in the jar above give you enough information to estimate whether the pump is functioning to its proper capacity, or is weak?

Two gallons should be more than enough unless the pickup tube is way out of whack. The jar test should give you some indication as to whether the pump is really weak. That said, that's a rebuildable pump. If the car has been sitting for years with ethanol gas (and no additive in it) in it up to the pump, there is no telling the condition of the diaphragm.

2. Wheels and tires: I found some inexpensive (thin whitewall) tires at walmart, but will I need new wheels/rims? There's some rust on the outside of the wheels - the worst section is shown below, all the other wheels are better than this one.

This surface rust is probably not an issue. The wire wheel, phosphoric acid, primer, and paint should be fine. You'll know more when you dismount the tire.

I have a set of 8-lugs on my '63. When I got my wheels, rims, and center caps, the guy from whom I purchased them told me that he'd pulled them off of a Grand Prix sitting up to its beltline in mud. The glass beader did a phenomenal job on the aluminum wheels (though many years later, of course, the corrosion between the cast iron drums and the aluminum wheels got the better of them, so they've been re-done). I wire wheeled the rims, primed, and painted them the proper color, which has held up well for several decades, now.

The point of all of this is that rims are fairly solid, and moisture generally doesn't get between inflated tires and the steel, so what you see on the outside is generally not indicative of the overall condition of the rim, and usually more cosmetic than anything else. As I say, you'll know more when you get the tire dismounted.

You're putting a lot into keeping this car not only period-correct but correct-correct. Are you sure you want to put thin whitewalls on it vs ordering a set of (more) correct tires from Coker or Lucas or some such? (I just got a set of Coker Classic Star Series bias-look radials for my '63, and they look and drive quite well.)

[Parkman51]

Another package day today! Below see the new fuel line (with the old one for comparison) and a package of fuel line clips.



Great advice on the doors (thanks, Rachelsdad). I guess I'll put that on the list for a larger project later - I've been very unwilling to do anything that would damage the interior door trim, so I'll sit down with the Fisher Body manuals before digging in there. Plus I can't weld, so any cutting and welding that needs to be done will have to be done by a reputable body shop.

Thankfully, the starter is now working again, after the minor repairs I gave it. If it conks out again, I'll have to find someone who can rebuild it.

Now, it's great to hear that the wheels are most likely in good shape, that means I can go ahead with new tires mostly as-is. I thought about getting something as period-correct as possible, until I saw the price difference. Yowch! Coker sells thick whitewalls for around $330 each, whereas walmart sells thin ones for about $70. I am not a rich man (and White Post just clobbered me with an $800 bill for the brakes), so I'll put off period-correct tires perhaps for next time. Thankfully tires are easy to swap.

Today's two questions:
1. The fuel supply issue has been genuinely puzzling me, and I haven't got an answer yet. I'm certainly hoping it's not the sending unit, it seemed to install okay, and dismounting and remounting the gas tank was probably the most annoying job to date. Yet I'm also hoping it's not the fuel pump, as from the photos yesterday it looks like the pump is drawing (though I have no reference to determine whether it's drawing appropriately). I think I'll try mounting the new fuel line, and seeing if I can get fuel running from Jar to Engine. If not, the pump will have to come out and probably get rebuilt - but if that works, I guess I'll put more gas in the tank and try reconnecting that line. Aside from the brakes, I feel like we're SO CLOSE to being able to motor slowly around the neighborhood, and see how the transmission shifts - confound this fuel problem. Any ideas?
2. I test-fit the new fuel line, but it looks as though it leaves very little room (if at all) for a fuel filter next to the carb. I found one image online (https://sam.marknetalliance.com/imag...9/15590810.jpg) that shows the filter mounted directly at the carburetor - so it seems this is the correct layout. Unless you have a better idea, I'm going to go out on a limb and order a glass bowl-type filter, and just see where I can plug it in.

[Jack Gifford]

I've had instances of mechanical fuel pumps refusing to start pumping, where the problem was a very tiny leak in the plumbing to the tank. The leaks were so tiny that they didn't leak fuel out, but let air in.
Other times a clogged air inlet to the tank was the culprit.

[Parkman51]

Today is a very good day: the fuel pump has decided to work, in a very distinct fashion. Before hooking up the new fuel line (upon which, more later) I decided to crank the engine a few more times, to see if I could get any notable amounts of fuel coming out of the outlet. Well, on the first crank, it kicked on and started spraying fuel everywhere, much to my simultaneous delight and chagrin. Remember my graduated jar? Remember how the fuel level went down about a notch on the jar after 4 or 5 cycles? Well, the one singular cycle I ran today (less than 10 seconds) drained nearly all I had in there, from the top mark down. I guess it's working!



Well, after that, I was all prepared to hook up the new pump-to-carb fuel line, and give the car more than ten seconds of runtime by refilling the jar. Yet when I tried to screw the new fittings in, I discovered that they were too large. Fortunately, it seems this was true of the old line as well, and there was a reducer fitting left on the line when I removed it - a quick test fit confirmed that the reducer will serve our purposes - though I'm not going to use the old one, I'll go pick up two new ones tomorrow.



After that, I removed the hubcaps and cleaned them. Might get the new tires installed tomorrow - we'll see if they're in stock.



Today's two questions:
1. Do I need O-rings or crush washers for the fuel line?
2. There's a hole (for a clutch, I presume) in the cabin floorplate I removed when excavating the master cylinder. Is that supposed to have a block-off or a seal or something? Nothing is there, and it seems odd to simply have an uncovered hole from the outside into the cabin underlayment.

[Safari Larry]

Great to hear fuel pump is working. 1. There are no O-rings or crush washers in the fuel line. 2. Odd that you have a hole in floorboard for clutch. It should not be there. MPC Group 9.038, "STEERING COLUMN AND PEDAL PLATE", lists a different part for Hydramatic and Std Transmission. 1955-56 are same. I have both but am using the one for Hydramatic.

Unrelated: I'm no longer getting email notifications of changes in this forum. I need to track down the reason for that. Something changed.

[Parkman51]

Two steps forward, one step back. I drove around to different parts stores today, but didn't find fittings that matched the one that was there. Plus, the fittings already on the fuel line can slide off, so I figure I need to flare the ends.

Larry, it's great to hear from you again! I haven't been getting notifications either, but it matters less for me, because I update daily anyhow.

Today's two questions:
1. Fuel line flaring: Here's the hardware situation. The fuel pump outlet is 1/8" NPT, and the fittings on the fuel line are 1/2" flare (right, in the photo below). The closest fitting I found while driving about is 1/8" NPT x 1/2" inverted flare (left, in the photo below). If I flare the ends of the fuel line, will the hardware I have work, or do I need something different? Any advice on flaring the steel tubing?



2. On the pedal plate: I'm not positive about what I'm seeing in the MPC, but in the group Larry mentioned, it looks like there is a “seal, clutch pedal floor hole” for 53-57, with “all HT & PG.” I assume HT is Hydramatic Transmission, but not sure what PG is. So if there's a seal for the hole, maybe I can just find one (or make something that fits). I don't know why they'd make two separate plates, and then also make a seal for the one that's perforated for a clutch pedal.

[johnta1]

PG is Powerglide maybe?